gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 27, 2013 18:05:24 GMT -5
Hockeyguy - admittedly I could be wrong but I think those less than stellar attendance figures can be attributed to any of a number of factors: 1 - The PW 2 - Losing; see 1 3 - Boring style of basketball; see 1 4 - Weather; cold, snow, etc 5 - Lack of inspiration - both teams bad and the game for all intents and purposes means nothing. While the SPC game could decide who ends up in the PIG; see 1 6 - Surely there are many other possible explanations including I could be wrong but until proven otherwise I remain confident in my position that A10 league games will far outdraw MAAC league games on Siena's home court. Don't forget 90% of the home games are available on TW Cable, so why go out in the cold when you can stay home and drink your $5 6-pack? Luckily, I have stats that prove that MAAC games on TV average just as much attendance (6,300) as non-televised MAAC games (6,250) through 2011-2012. Actually, one of Hockeyguy's arguments is definitely valid... if Siena pulls a LaSalle and goes 65 games under .500 in the A-10 through the first 18 seasons then attendance would drop like a rock... the hard core fans would still be there but the casual fan would rather see Siena pound St. Peters then repeatedly lose 5 point games to St. Joseph's. But, as others have said, I strongly feel that if we want to continue the level of success we have enjoyed and commit to hoops, we have to have faith in the Siena brand and allot the level of resources necessary to compete at the proper level. Perhaps LaSalle has learned that recently with its NIT appearance and sweet 16 run. Hockeyguy's other argument regarding the level of competition seems to run contradictory to the not being able to compete argument. Either the competition is too great for Siena to handle (Siena loses, attendance falls) or the competition is not an upgrade from the maac (Siena can win but expenses outweigh advantages) --- both can't happen. Of course, my position is that neither will happen and Siena will flourish assuming the right level of support, much of which is in place or is in process. Also, I have the opposite view of Hockeyguy in that if it works out for the Siena admin, they should go for the A10 now (if it is an option) rather than wait for a better offer later that may never come. Who says you can't marry twice if it doesn't work out the first time? Happens all the time, just look at Butler :-) Maybe it is a moot point and Siena doesn't get an offer, makes an elite eight run with Long and company out of the MAAC and then the Catholic 7 comes calling. I'd sign up for that.... I just want out of the MAAC if something better comes along, sooner than later. |
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Dec 27, 2013 19:20:34 GMT -5
I don't know how to attach anything or how to open a new thread. The NY Times has an excellent story on the Monmouth head coach. I hope somebody who can expand this is able to read the story and post it. Done. |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 28, 2013 16:17:02 GMT -5
Don't forget 90% of the home games are available on TW Cable, so why go out in the cold when you can stay home and drink your $5 6-pack? Luckily, I have stats that prove that MAAC games on TV average just as much attendance (6,300) as non-televised MAAC games (6,250) through 2011-2012. You can't prove anything when the variables for the study aren't the same, or equal. How many MAAC home games WEREN'T televised? 1? 2? This year it's: 9 home MAAC games on TW, and only 1 not (Iona)on TW. So you can come to an intelligent conclusion based on a 9:1 game ratio? What about things like: Day of the week? Weather conditions? Opponent? Entertainment competition on game night? You can say not televising the games will hurt us in our attempt to build the Siena "brand," but it's foolish to think having the "stay at home" option doesn't hurt attendance figures on a whole. Even nutjobs on this board, myself included, have admited, on more than one occassion, to NOT going to games for whatever reason because we knew we could watch it in the comfort of our own home. So if DIE HARD fans will stay home, what do you think the average fan will do more than half the time? |
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Post by Tony on Dec 28, 2013 17:19:14 GMT -5
My thoughts on this—when team stinks much more likely to stay home and watch on TV- which I did most of the time with PW—I don’t think I missed a single game ( other than golf trips to Florida) in Fran’s entire tenure at Siena. Personally I think it helps to televise when you are good- hurts when you stink or play boring basketball. Right now we need to re brand—after the 3 year run into the toilette
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 29, 2013 14:47:37 GMT -5
Luckily, I have stats that prove that MAAC games on TV average just as much attendance (6,300) as non-televised MAAC games (6,250) through 2011-2012. You can't prove anything when the variables for the study aren't the same, or equal. How many MAAC home games WEREN'T televised? 1? 2? This year it's: 9 home MAAC games on TW, and only 1 not (Iona)on TW. So you can come to an intelligent conclusion based on a 9:1 game ratio? What about things like: Day of the week? Weather conditions? Opponent? Entertainment competition on game night? You can say not televising the games will hurt us in our attempt to build the Siena "brand," but it's foolish to think having the "stay at home" option doesn't hurt attendance figures on a whole. Even nutjobs on this board, myself included, have admited, on more than one occassion, to NOT going to games for whatever reason because we knew we could watch it in the comfort of our own home. So if DIE HARD fans will stay home, what do you think the average fan will do more than half the time? Come on, you know I wouldn't base stats on 1 game. The data is from 2001-2002 through 2011 MAAC seasons and includes a total of 11 seasons and 99 games. Of the 99 games, 39 were on TV, and 60 were not. While it is not a scientific "study", it is reasonable that the variables you cite (Day of the week, weather conditions, opponent (all MAAC) etc have been controlled with so much data. You can't just say that the average fan will stay home half the time, otherwise the nontelevised games would average significantly higher attendance overall. It's a nice theory, but it is not supported by the data. However, I do believe that the season ticket holder may stay home from time to time---- the data only reports paid attendance, which is what is important to this thread--- (ticket revenue versus TV revenue). As you noted, television builds the brand while still allowing for robust ticket sales. It makes good sense that the majority of MAAC home games will be televised going forward. What is interesting as the data also suggests that Friday night games are just as well attended as Saturday night games, Sunday and Monday average about the same as Wednesday and Thursday, while no MAAC home game should ever be held on a Tuesday. Also, Manhattan and Marist are the most well attended MAAC foes over the same 11 year period, with Niagara also bringing in more than the average. We are indifferent to the rest of the MAAC. But the most telling stat is consecutive years of losing really causes paid attendance to go down. For example, about 2,000 more fans attended MAAC games during the Fran years than the Lanier years. |
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Dec 29, 2013 16:23:32 GMT -5
Luckily, I have stats that prove that MAAC games on TV average just as much attendance (6,300) as non-televised MAAC games (6,250) through 2011-2012. You can't prove anything when the variables for the study aren't the same, or equal. How many MAAC home games WEREN'T televised? 1? 2? This year it's: 9 home MAAC games on TW, and only 1 not (Iona)on TW. So you can come to an intelligent conclusion based on a 9:1 game ratio? What about things like: Day of the week? Weather conditions? Opponent? Entertainment competition on game night? You can say not televising the games will hurt us in our attempt to build the Siena "brand," but it's foolish to think having the "stay at home" option doesn't hurt attendance figures on a whole. Even nutjobs on this board, myself included, have admited, on more than one occassion, to NOT going to games for whatever reason because we knew we could watch it in the comfort of our own home. So if DIE HARD fans will stay home, what do you think the average fan will do more than half the time? Hoop junkie, it's not that simple, your fan base needs to increase over time. How else do plan to expose people to Siena basketball. When my son is old enough, I will surely bring him, but he is going to be a fan long before that. This foolishness that anyone that has the means to go to a game and doesn't is not a true fan is moronic. Why people have the need to quantify a persons loyalty to a college basketball team seems a bit infantile to me. I don't mean you HJ. My point is that marketing of Siena basketball by televising games is critical. People like myself enjoy watching games on tv and won't go to the game even if it is not televised. Is this what you want. Delayed broadcasts is not the answer, everyone knows that. Advertisers won't pay the same dollar for an inferior product. Some of you have to stop thinking we are Syracuse or Louisville, we are not. We are a program that is like a premature baby trying to survive to get to be able to go home with his parents . We have been like that for the last 30 years, not televising games would stunt Siena's growth. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2013 17:11:25 GMT -5
Did not want to start a new thread, but since the talk is about TV, for those that like to watch MAAC basketball...Canisius vs Notre Dame is on ESPNU now. Griffs off to a 14-5 lead
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 29, 2013 17:51:54 GMT -5
You can't prove anything when the variables for the study aren't the same, or equal. How many MAAC home games WEREN'T televised? 1? 2? This year it's: 9 home MAAC games on TW, and only 1 not (Iona)on TW. So you can come to an intelligent conclusion based on a 9:1 game ratio? What about things like: Day of the week? Weather conditions? Opponent? Entertainment competition on game night? You can say not televising the games will hurt us in our attempt to build the Siena "brand," but it's foolish to think having the "stay at home" option doesn't hurt attendance figures on a whole. Even nutjobs on this board, myself included, have admited, on more than one occassion, to NOT going to games for whatever reason because we knew we could watch it in the comfort of our own home. So if DIE HARD fans will stay home, what do you think the average fan will do more than half the time? Come on, you know I wouldn't base stats on 1 game. The data is from 2001-2002 through 2011 MAAC seasons and includes a total of 11 seasons and 99 games. Of the 99 games, 39 were on TV, and 60 were not. While it is not a scientific "study", it is reasonable that the variables you cite (Day of the week, weather conditions, opponent (all MAAC) etc have been controlled with so much data. You can't just say that the average fan will stay home half the time, otherwise the nontelevised games would average significantly higher attendance overall. It's a nice theory, but it is not supported by the data. However, I do believe that the season ticket holder may stay home from time to time---- the data only reports paid attendance, which is what is important to this thread--- (ticket revenue versus TV revenue). As you noted, television builds the brand while still allowing for robust ticket sales. It makes good sense that the majority of MAAC home games will be televised going forward. What is interesting as the data also suggests that Friday night games are just as well attended as Saturday night games, Sunday and Monday average about the same as Wednesday and Thursday, while no MAAC home game should ever be held on a Tuesday. Also, Manhattan and Marist are the most well attended MAAC foes over the same 11 year period, with Niagara also bringing in more than the average. We are indifferent to the rest of the MAAC. But the most telling stat is consecutive years of losing really causes paid attendance to go down. For example, about 2,000 more fans attended MAAC games during the Fran years than the Lanier years. Well this year, as I pointed out, ONE MAAC home game isn't being televised. Your study continually loses steam with nearly every game being televised now. And variables like competition (SUNY game, Big HS game, etc...) at the same time always hurt the numbers. Weather is never in the calculations. ps--I was being faceitious about the "brand." We don't have a brand. We're a mid-njor in a non-professional market. No one in Western NY cares abut Siena basketball, and no one here cares about Canisius basketball. |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 29, 2013 18:01:54 GMT -5
You can't prove anything when the variables for the study aren't the same, or equal. How many MAAC home games WEREN'T televised? 1? 2? This year it's: 9 home MAAC games on TW, and only 1 not (Iona)on TW. So you can come to an intelligent conclusion based on a 9:1 game ratio? What about things like: Day of the week? Weather conditions? Opponent? Entertainment competition on game night? You can say not televising the games will hurt us in our attempt to build the Siena "brand," but it's foolish to think having the "stay at home" option doesn't hurt attendance figures on a whole. Even nutjobs on this board, myself included, have admited, on more than one occassion, to NOT going to games for whatever reason because we knew we could watch it in the comfort of our own home. So if DIE HARD fans will stay home, what do you think the average fan will do more than half the time? Hoop junkie, it's not that simple, your fan base needs to increase over time. How else do plan to expose people to Siena basketball. When my son is old enough, I will surely bring him, but he is going to be a fan long before that. This foolishness that anyone that has the means to go to a game and doesn't is not a true fan is moronic. Why people have the need to quantify a persons loyalty to a college basketball team seems a bit infantile to me. I don't mean you HJ. My point is that marketing of Siena basketball by televising games is critical. People like myself enjoy watching games on tv and won't go to the game even if it is not televised. Is this what you want. Delayed broadcasts is not the answer, everyone knows that. Advertisers won't pay the same dollar for an inferior product. Some of you have to stop thinking we are Syracuse or Louisville, we are not. We are a program that is like a premature baby trying to survive to get to be able to go home with his parents . We have been like that for the last 30 years, not televising games would stunt Siena's growth. Somehow I grew up a Siena fan without every game being on TV!? How'd I do it?? How'd you do it? You must be a big fan or you wouldn't be out here. Your son will be a fan of who you put him in front of. If people can't afford to go to the games, fine. I have no beef with that. It's the ones that stay home, BUT want us to be the Syracuse you're talking about!! How do you get that home court advantage and reputation if fans decide it's easier to stay home. Sorry, but I think televising the games on a delay at 9pm is the best way to do it. There's no "top dollar" advertising on TW-3. They'd still make money off the games and people can watch their beloved Saints and be in bed by 10:30. The fans coming home from the games would probably make up more than half the viewing audience! lol As for "building the fanbase" where did the 15K go that was at all those NIT games?? They're still here, just won't come unless you WIN. Lots of frontrunners in this town. Always has been. Now the TRUE fans are the 6K at the current games, the other 9K Siena "fans" watch at home because they can;) |
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Post by Big papi on Dec 29, 2013 18:35:40 GMT -5
The problem in dropping attendance is the bulk of season ticket holders are in their golden years, unfortunately we lose some each year and going to the TUC becomes more and more difficult for some of the old timers. I almost didn't go the other night because the game was on TV, but I remembered I had to buy Tony a Christmas beer, so I walked down at 645 an advantage I have living only a few blocks away from TUC.
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Post by Tony on Dec 29, 2013 19:21:32 GMT -5
The problem in dropping attendance is the bulk of season ticket holders are in their golden years, unfortunately we lose some each year and going to the TUC becomes more and more difficult for some of the old timers. I almost didn't go the other night because the game was on TV, but I remembered I had to buy Tony a Christmas beer, so I walked down at 645 an advantage I have living only a few blocks away from TUC. and I must admit that beer was Delicious.. hopefully you'll be there Monday night so I can buy you a new years 's beer |
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Dec 29, 2013 19:33:05 GMT -5
The problem in dropping attendance is the bulk of season ticket holders are in their golden years, unfortunately we lose some each year and going to the TUC becomes more and more difficult for some of the old timers. I almost didn't go the other night because the game was on TV, but I remembered I had to buy Tony a Christmas beer, so I walked down at 645 an advantage I have living only a few blocks away from TUC. I think the tv exposure increases the fan base, not decreases it. The more kids the grow up watching Siena games on tv or going to games with their parents the better. Getting rid of one medium actually hurts the other. Once the base fans hits the point when you can fill the arena (15k), then we can talk about blackouts. Until then be happy the games are televised. |
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Dec 29, 2013 19:37:22 GMT -5
Hoop junkie, it's not that simple, your fan base needs to increase over time. How else do plan to expose people to Siena basketball. When my son is old enough, I will surely bring him, but he is going to be a fan long before that. This foolishness that anyone that has the means to go to a game and doesn't is not a true fan is moronic. Why people have the need to quantify a persons loyalty to a college basketball team seems a bit infantile to me. I don't mean you HJ. My point is that marketing of Siena basketball by televising games is critical. People like myself enjoy watching games on tv and won't go to the game even if it is not televised. Is this what you want. Delayed broadcasts is not the answer, everyone knows that. Advertisers won't pay the same dollar for an inferior product. Some of you have to stop thinking we are Syracuse or Louisville, we are not. We are a program that is like a premature baby trying to survive to get to be able to go home with his parents . We have been like that for the last 30 years, not televising games would stunt Siena's growth. Somehow I grew up a Siena fan without every game being on TV!? How'd I do it?? How'd you do it? You must be a big fan or you wouldn't be out here. Your son will be a fan of who you put him in front of. If people can't afford to go to the games, fine. I have no beef with that. It's the ones that stay home, BUT want us to be the Syracuse you're talking about!! How do you get that home court advantage and reputation if fans decide it's easier to stay home. Sorry, but I think televising the games on a delay at 9pm is the best way to do it. There's no "top dollar" advertising on TW-3. They'd still make money off the games and people can watch their beloved Saints and be in bed by 10:30. The fans coming home from the games would probably make up more than half the viewing audience! lol As for "building the fanbase" where did the 15K go that was at all those NIT games?? They're still here, just won't come unless you WIN. Lots of frontrunners in this town. Always has been. Now the TRUE fans are the 6K at the current games, the other 9K Siena "fans" watch at home because they can;) I been following Siena for decades, and other than the last year of beyer, I listened to every game I could. During the good years I did the same, hardly went to a game. People are different, not everyone wants the same product, I love watching game on tv and following the stats at the same time on the laptop. Okay I'm not a fan, how about Siena bb enthusiast? Go Saints!! |
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 29, 2013 20:28:30 GMT -5
Come on, you know I wouldn't base stats on 1 game. The data is from 2001-2002 through 2011 MAAC seasons and includes a total of 11 seasons and 99 games. Of the 99 games, 39 were on TV, and 60 were not. While it is not a scientific "study", it is reasonable that the variables you cite (Day of the week, weather conditions, opponent (all MAAC) etc have been controlled with so much data. You can't just say that the average fan will stay home half the time, otherwise the nontelevised games would average significantly higher attendance overall. It's a nice theory, but it is not supported by the data. However, I do believe that the season ticket holder may stay home from time to time---- the data only reports paid attendance, which is what is important to this thread--- (ticket revenue versus TV revenue). As you noted, television builds the brand while still allowing for robust ticket sales. It makes good sense that the majority of MAAC home games will be televised going forward. What is interesting as the data also suggests that Friday night games are just as well attended as Saturday night games, Sunday and Monday average about the same as Wednesday and Thursday, while no MAAC home game should ever be held on a Tuesday. Also, Manhattan and Marist are the most well attended MAAC foes over the same 11 year period, with Niagara also bringing in more than the average. We are indifferent to the rest of the MAAC. But the most telling stat is consecutive years of losing really causes paid attendance to go down. For example, about 2,000 more fans attended MAAC games during the Fran years than the Lanier years. Well this year, as I pointed out, ONE MAAC home game isn't being televised. Your study continually loses steam with nearly every game being televised now. And variables like competition (SUNY game, Big HS game, etc...) at the same time always hurt the numbers. Weather is never in the calculations. ps--I was being faceitious about the "brand." We don't have a brand. We're a mid-njor in a non-professional market. No one in Western NY cares abut Siena basketball, and no one here cares about Canisius basketball. So which is it--- are the numbers lower because of the weather, because of the competition, or because it is on TV? Those variables you are talking about hurt the numbers whether the game is on tv or not so it is not a factor. Remember, in 100 games, with 40% of them being on TV, the paid attendance was the same whether it was on TV or not. This includes games in good weather, games in bad weather, games on the beloved high school Friday night (which draw the same as Saturday nights regardless... etc). PS, The brand I'm talking about building is the brand in the capital region. Siena is lucky they have the opportunity to put these games live on tv-- it's either us or UAlbany. The analysis doesn't lose steam--- it is already complete and it has been decided that live tv is the way to go. Ironicaly for your argument, I became a college basketball fan by watching Marist play on channel 62 in the early 80s. Siena was also on channel 38 or 45 sometimes. Through the snow you could barely see it, but it was there. How many new fans are born each year because of these live tv games.... the upside of brand recognition in the capital region far outweighs the lower amounts of actual attendance. I do wish that more people would attend the games--- the best way to bring out the fans is to win games, especially at home ---- 2,000 more fans on average .... you are right as with all sports teams Albany loves a winner. Heck I got one frontrunner in my own house as my wife cancelled her season ticket as soon as she found out that Mitch was hired. She'll be back next year if all goes well..... |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 29, 2013 21:20:40 GMT -5
Well this year, as I pointed out, ONE MAAC home game isn't being televised. Your study continually loses steam with nearly every game being televised now. And variables like competition (SUNY game, Big HS game, etc...) at the same time always hurt the numbers. Weather is never in the calculations. ps--I was being faceitious about the "brand." We don't have a brand. We're a mid-njor in a non-professional market. No one in Western NY cares abut Siena basketball, and no one here cares about Canisius basketball. So which is it--- are the numbers lower because of the weather, because of the competition, or because it is on TV? Those variables you are talking about hurt the numbers whether the game is on tv or not so it is not a factor. Remember, in 100 games, with 40% of them being on TV, the paid attendance was the same whether it was on TV or not. This includes games in good weather, games in bad weather, games on the beloved high school Friday night (which draw the same as Saturday nights regardless... etc). PS, The brand I'm talking about building is the brand in the capital region. Siena is lucky they have the opportunity to put these games live on tv-- it's either us or UAlbany. The analysis doesn't lose steam--- it is already complete and it has been decided that live tv is the way to go. Ironicaly for your argument, I became a college basketball fan by watching Marist play on channel 62 in the early 80s. Siena was also on channel 38 or 45 sometimes. Through the snow you could barely see it, but it was there. How many new fans are born each year because of these live tv games.... the upside of brand recognition in the capital region far outweighs the lower amounts of actual attendance. I do wish that more people would attend the games--- the best way to bring out the fans is to win games, especially at home ---- 2,000 more fans on average .... you are right as with all sports teams Albany loves a winner. Heck I got one frontrunner in my own house as my wife cancelled her season ticket as soon as she found out that Mitch was hired. She'll be back next year if all goes well..... If we still played in the ARC like we did in the ch 38 days, I would never complain about TV. Those Siena Indian games were almost always sold out regardless of the record. Now we have at least 10K seats. No excuse for not going for 95% of the "fans." |
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