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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 14:55:53 GMT -5
glen, I understand that the A-10 is primarily "a hoop league" and likely sees itself that way, the question is, does the Siena College administration see that as good thing for the school? Maybe they do, I am not privy to their thoughts. Nolesaint... playing in the A10 might actually hurt attendance. The attendance for the last 5 A10 games at the TUC is actually well below the season average even after subtracting out the UA game. The Numbers: SBU (11/11)6,067, Fordham (12/11) 5,476, UMass (11/12) 5,739, LaSalle (12/12) 5,907, SBU (11/13) 5,654. Average attendance (after removing UA game) 2011-2012 season - 6,375 2012-2013 season - 6,063. Even SPU drew 6,299 last year and 7,095 the year before that. We'll see how the Fordham game goes Monday night but I would be surprised if they crack 6,000. And these are the teams that would be coming to the TUC on a regular basis in the new A10 (Fordham, LaSalle, UMass, SBU). HG I think you are comparing hockey pucks to footballs or the like! The last three years are, IMHO, an aberration. I don't have the numbers in front of me but what were the attendance numbers for the MAAC games themselves during those years, especially against the bottom feeders like us. Early holiday season OOC game figures can't compare to conference games in the heat of the season when games are important and there are fewer events to compete with. Had we kept Fran and our winning ways, I would venture a bet that the crowds for the games you cited would have been 30% bigger or close to that. Winning brings the fannies in, losing nails them to the sofa. Moving to a new conference with a new set of name brand teams will drum up interest from fans that possibly never even attended a MAAC game. Teams like VCU, Richmond, Duquesne, George Mason, George Washington and Davidson would draw big crowds now. Add the drama of conference standings and newly established rivalries can be a big step toward removing the tarps. Does anyone know if local media, like TW in our area, are allowed to carry A10 games live in the home team's coverage area? I would guess not but have no way to prove or disprove that theory.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 15:07:00 GMT -5
Thanks for that post MP. I started to write one going down the same path and I decided it wasn't worth the effort. It should be as plain as the nose on folks faces. It is a "No Brainer"
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Post by Tony on Dec 26, 2013 15:07:20 GMT -5
glen, I understand that the A-10 is primarily "a hoop league" and likely sees itself that way, the question is, does the Siena College administration see that as good thing for the school? Maybe they do, I am not privy to their thoughts. Nolesaint... playing in the A10 might actually hurt attendance. The attendance for the last 5 A10 games at the TUC is actually well below the season average even after subtracting out the UA game. The Numbers: SBU (11/11)6,067, Fordham (12/11) 5,476, UMass (11/12) 5,739, LaSalle (12/12) 5,907, SBU (11/13) 5,654. Average attendance (after removing UA game) 2011-2012 season - 6,375 2012-2013 season - 6,063. Even SPU drew 6,299 last year and 7,095 the year before that. We'll see how the Fordham game goes Monday night but I would be surprised if they crack 6,000. And these are the teams that would be coming to the TUC on a regular basis in the new A10 (Fordham, LaSalle, UMass, SBU). A few things on those attendance numbers-- all are taken under PW--where attendance has been dropping like a rock. In season the last few years Siena has run several promotions for the historically low drawing teams ( SPC being one of them) And Monday night might not get 6K ,Students not around, hell with no promotions SPC might not break 5K if we were playing them. Many of these arguments are recycled arguments. I've made the attendance facts known--I've posted the relative strength of two conferences- and quite frankly even the watered down version of A10 is vastly... and I mean vastly superior to MAAC --most years the top team in the MAAC would be a 3rd or 4th place team in A10- this year Umass- GW – VCU- Dayton – St Louis are clearly better than anyone in the MAAC- St Joes- Richmond and LaSalle are probably as good or close to as good as anyone in MAAC-( so what’s that the top 8 as good or better than Manhattan??) hell Fordham beat the MAAC favorite Manhattan on their home floor – sorry anyone thinking the two conferences are even close in strength is quite frankly clueless..I’ll wait to hear your argument how A10 and MAAC are close in strength --unless you are throwing out the top 8 teams- sorry it won’t work
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Post by Tony on Dec 26, 2013 15:12:52 GMT -5
Keep in mind we can differing opinions on this board. Glens falls thinks the move would be bad for several reasons – he obviously has an issue with Siena upping its level of commitment to D1 ball . Upstate seems to have similar “issue” but masks that issue with questions about attendance or saying level of competition wouldn’t be any different than MAAC- although both positions have been thoroughly debunked- both of them have transparent reasons for being against such a jump. I wish they would just come out and say they are against it for ..Whatever their reasons are—but make no mistake about it- both have heavy agenda’s against any possible move. And hey that’s fine just consider the source Speaking of agenda's. Maybe I should post our PM conversation. You are supposed to be a moderator but come on here and blatantly lie to advance your agenda. Maybe that's why Siena fans are seen as cry babies and bitches. They are all scum bags like you. I hope a few people see this before you delete it and lie some more. Your "forum" is a effing joke. Do you think this means I wont receive a Christmas card from Upstate ?? Needless to say Upstate wont be posting here anymore. Not sure who he was a fan of-- it sure as heel wasn't Siena-- he was a tireless promoter of Siena remaining in MAAC-- and to tell you the truth I wouldn't have had a problem with that except anyone who disagreed with him he would launch in a verbal attack..when I saw him attack Center Square Ed a few days ago I knew his days were over... Ed has been here a few years and dont think he has ever got into a pissing contest with a single user ..anyway thanks for the laughs Upstate.. try the MAAC board your style might fly over there
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Post by Tony on Dec 26, 2013 15:17:55 GMT -5
Hey Grovy..... I knew that if you posted enough you would manufacture facts to mislead readers on this site. You manufactured in the first post in page 2 of this thread when you stated that St.Bonaventure receives "estimated annual media revenue of $750,000" from the A10. The below linked article quotes information from the Providence Journal which indicates that before headliners Xavier and Butler bolted the A10 each team in the league received only $357,143, if split evenly, before deduction of league expenses. Thus, the correct number is approximately one third (1/3d) of the fictitious number you stated. I would be surprised if the $357K sum was not recused after Xavier and Butler left. [Note: my quick search has been unable to even confirm whether the A10 even still has a national media contract after the departures of Xavier and Butler... Can anyone confirm?] Facts are a stubborn thing, and your exaggeration of facts diminishes your credibility. Capisce? Link www.vuhoops.com/2012/10/3/3448930/basketball-isnt-worth-much-to-tvHere is the link that I used to support my opinion that St. Bonaventure has had a better last 10 years than Siena: www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-newport-newsbased-atlantic-10-enhances-revenue-exposure-with-new-tv-deal-20121004,0,7824318.story "The A-10’s most recent federal tax return available, for fiscal 2010-11, reported revenue of $10.2 million. Unlike many conferences, the A-10 did not categorize that income, but a majority of any league’s money comes form media rights. That $10.2 million averaged to about $730,000 per each of the conference’s then 14 members." Perhaps the $10.2 million includes NCAA tournament revenue, of which the A10 earned three times as much as the MAAC in the 2009-2010 season: www.thefreelibrary.com/The+valley%3A+how+TV+rights+could+dry+up+budgets.-a0285088967According to the table the A10 earned $5.7 million on 24 units compared to $1.8 million and 8 units for the maac based on their performance in the 2005 through 2010 seasons. The two extra units for the MAAC were earned by Siena. Now, some of these units were earned by Temple and Xavier, so the gap is likely to be smaller going forward. How much smaller is a matter of opinion though, whereas history clearly favors the A10 over the MAAC. Also, you seem to be unable to even confirm whether the A10 even still has a national media contract after the departures of Xavier and Butler. Let me help you with this article from September 5, 2013 outlining the Atlantic 10's outstanding national tv package for the 2013-2014 post Xavier/Butler era: www.atlantic10.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=31600&ATCLID=209251477You will have to use your scroll key as the list of 71 nationally televised games is quite lengthy. "The 2013-14 Atlantic 10 men’s basketball conference schedule features a record number of nationally televised games as well as significant conference matchups, including 85 games with at least one team that participated in the 2013 postseason. The schedule and the games that will air nationally on ESPN, CBS Sports Network and NBCSN were announced Thursday by the A-10. The first year of the conference’s eight-year media television partnership will feature a record 71 nationally televised games: 50 conference games, 14 premium non-conference contests and the quarterfinals, semifinals and final of the men’s basketball championship. The championship final will air on CBS Sports for the fifth straight year as part of the network’s Selection Sunday coverage." By the way, it's "gorvy". Don't worry, I understand how difficult it is to spell 5 letter words sometimes. Another 5 letter word that is tough to spell is "Siena". Oftentimes, it is misspelled "Sienna". I guess when you are in a conference like the MAAC, with limited media exposure, it is tough to get people to be able to spell your name right. In closing, joining the A10 (if ever offered) would be a risk. As Tony said, if Siena does not make an increased commitment, it would fail in the A10, just like Marist has failed in the MAAC. Sometimes taking a risk is the right thing to do. Like you, I think Siena will be weighing all of its options and making an informed decision, if an opportunity does arise. this is whats called a grade "A" ass-kicking well down Gorvy
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Dec 26, 2013 16:06:12 GMT -5
glen, I understand that the A-10 is primarily "a hoop league" and likely sees itself that way, the question is, does the Siena College administration see that as good thing for the school? Maybe they do, I am not privy to their thoughts. Nolesaint... playing in the A10 might actually hurt attendance. The attendance for the last 5 A10 games at the TUC is actually well below the season average even after subtracting out the UA game. The Numbers: SBU (11/11)6,067, Fordham (12/11) 5,476, UMass (11/12) 5,739, LaSalle (12/12) 5,907, SBU (11/13) 5,654. Average attendance (after removing UA game) 2011-2012 season - 6,375 2012-2013 season - 6,063. Even SPU drew 6,299 last year and 7,095 the year before that. We'll see how the Fordham game goes Monday night but I would be surprised if they crack 6,000. And these are the teams that would be coming to the TUC on a regular basis in the new A10 (Fordham, LaSalle, UMass, SBU). Hockeyguy - admittedly I could be wrong but I think those less than stellar attendance figures can be attributed to any of a number of factors: 1 - The PW 2 - Losing; see 1 3 - Boring style of basketball; see 1 4 - Weather; cold, snow, etc 5 - Lack of inspiration - both teams bad and the game for all intents and purposes means nothing. While the SPC game could decide who ends up in the PIG; see 1 6 - Surely there are many other possible explanations including I could be wrong but until proven otherwise I remain confident in my position that A10 league games will far outdraw MAAC league games on Siena's home court.
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Post by MTS on Dec 26, 2013 16:27:54 GMT -5
Going to the A10 will hurt attendance? Cmon you're not serious with that are you?
Who do you think is going to draw more people VCU or Rider? George Mason or Niagara? St. Joe's or Iona?
The reason you can cherry pick games and make it "look better" is because the MAAC games are later in the year (which brings better crowds out) and those games ARE more important for Siena NOW since they are conference games.
It's hard to look at ANY attendance numbers over the past 3 years because we've been a bad team. Once we start winning again the big crowds will follow.
Fran's last year St. Joe's comes in and draws 8000 - two days later St. Peter's comes in and draws 6000.
Even if the worst case happens and the A10 loses Dayton, St. Louis, Richmond and VCU - the conference is so much better than the MAAC it's not funny. The MAAC was a good league but after 25 years it's time for a change. The A10 is where Siena belongs in the future.
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glen
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Post by glen on Dec 26, 2013 16:53:43 GMT -5
I will say that in defense of Hockeyguy, I'm not sure the casual fan sees URI as much different than Niagara. Comparing SJU and SPC is a little silly as SPC is notoriously bad. A number of MAAC teams would out-draw SPC by thousands. Heck we used to get 10K for a Marist or Manhattan game. The problem with attendance is 2-fold. 1) Albany area fans like a winner so when you're in a down cycle they bail. 2) Albany area fans take winning for granted. I remember the year after the Firebirds won the arena bowl attendance was down. The fans got bored or something. Seriously, how often does Albany have a national anything?!?
One could also argue that the rivalries we have with MAAC teams would draw better than a somewhat better A10 opponent. I'm not sure how that would break out of the gate but within 2 or 3 years I think people will appreciate the improved level of play in the A10.
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Post by Tony on Dec 26, 2013 17:19:20 GMT -5
I think I was a little tough on Hockey guy myself--its just we have been down this road so many times the last few months-- and its usually the same few posters Glens falls ( who is always polite on his objection about Siena upgrading) and Upstate-- who before he was upstate was a poster named Magic who got banned - if you remember how rude and crude Magic was-- well he had the exact same agenda as upstate--I will make a promise to Siena board members I will never let a non Siena fan like magic /Upstate hijack the board with their anti Siena views--I'll be on the look out for that touchole upstate -- if he tries to post under another handle I'll be on him like white on rice and ban him
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Post by hockeyguy on Dec 27, 2013 0:52:29 GMT -5
Tony, don't sweat it, you generally (and didn't this time) "throw elbows" to use a hockey phrase. This is a fan forum where we all have opinions, and I am fine with you guys disagreeing with me, even when you are wrong <wink and smile>. Give as good as you get. Guys like you and MP and most of the others who don't take it personally are fun to exchange perspectives with. Yes, as often as not I take a bit of a contrarian stance when some posters go a little overboard with their "facts" and absolute certain analysis, with no room for other perspectives, but ehhh... so what. There are always a few who may not always be right, but they are never in doubt. For the record, I would love to see VCU and Richmond and Mason and even George Washington in the TUC on a regular basis, but the way the schedule would likely break, it would more likely be the same guys we see now (SBU, UMass, LaSalle, Fordham, probably adding SJU and URI). I know the weather in November and early December is not as conducive to drawing a crowd as say snow and ice storms in January and February for mid-week games in the MAAC, when SPC can draw 7100 and Iona over 9,000, (yes they really did draw that many within the past two seasons with Mitch as coach, out-drawing GTech and Paul Hewitt even), and Marist and Manhattan bring in over 6500. Part of the reason is that Marist and Manhattan and even Niagra have significant numbers of alumi in the area, I can't think of an A10 team that has the same. I don't know if moving to the A10 would be good or bad overall, in the short-term, some basketball games would be better for sure. As glen pointed out, Albany fans "like a winner", that may be tougher to accomplish in the A10. If we were talking about joining the A10 of even three years ago, I would say "go for it"... not so sure of the "left-over" A10. Get their act together over the next 2 or 3 years and the "Catholic East" might be a better fit (and better basketball) in the long run. You give that chance up if you jump too soon at the first girl who will marry you.
** editorial note - I did not check to see if there was a snow or ice storm when SPC and IC came to play those nights (likely not) or even if they were mid-week, the point I was making was whether it is a top MAAC school or a bottom MAAC school they can draw. There are plenty of other MAAC games during "The Mitch Years" that also drew very nice crowds. Heck his middle year (after subtracting UA) averaged over 6500. I say get the team back to near where it was in Fran's middle years and see who comes calling. Just win baby!
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$cott
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Post by $cott on Dec 27, 2013 10:30:59 GMT -5
Unfortunately the past few years, the non-conference has been mostly meaningless since there was no chance of an at large bid. I think that is part of why the attendance for A10 games was down. Once those are conference games and have more meaning then I think they will clearly outdraw the games against MAAC teams.
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Dec 27, 2013 12:05:53 GMT -5
Hey all you guys that have the inside information from "secret sources" that the Big East will soon be inviting two more A10 members (likely VCU and St.Louis?) to join the Big East, and that Siena is guaranteed to be invited to join the A10 to play in the big time against St.Bonaventure University, Duquesne University, The George Washington University, Fordham, George Mason, LaSalle, Davidson, Dayton, UMass, St.Joe's, Richmond, and Dayton should,take a moment to read the below linked article from the New York Times which identifies the travel difficulties student athletes experience with conference realignment. Is it worth the disruption for the Siena athletes in all sports to have to travel to Ohio, North Carolina, Olean ,etc. by bus to be a member of the once formidable A10 Conference? Can anyone provide an estimate of how much the travel expenses for all of Siena's sport teams will be if it joins the A10 and how much those expenses will exceed the per school Siena would,receive from the A10's shrinking TV contract. Thanks & Merry Christmas to all. LINK www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/sports/scrambled-conferences-keeping-teams-up-in-the-air.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1387759601-w69HszpvCa5o9Qc8yP556w&_r=1&The only articles I remember was that the new BE could consider Siena based on its arena. Maybe from there it was mentioned that the A10 would invite Siena. A move could disrupt the student athletes but that's something Siena would consider in it's decision. Travel costs would increase for at least Basket Ball. Not sure if Siena's other sports would compete in A10 (at first). I like the quote from the WVU women's VBall team . We needed a change. So to does Siena need to get out of the MAAC (MAAC that bleeds it's money makers). Perhaps no college team faced a more formidable schedule this fall than the West Virginia volleyball team. The only Big 12 Conference team east of the Mississippi River and 90 minutes from the closest major airport, W.V.U. had multigame trips to Texas (twice) and Kansas, and single conference matches at Iowa State and Oklahoma. No wonder Coach Jill Kramer referred to Gate A89 at Pittsburgh International Airport as her team’s “home away from home.” “At the same time,” she said, “I wouldn’t change our conference affiliation for anything. We needed a change in affiliation to take our program to the next level.”
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 27, 2013 12:55:05 GMT -5
glen, I understand that the A-10 is primarily "a hoop league" and likely sees itself that way, the question is, does the Siena College administration see that as good thing for the school? Maybe they do, I am not privy to their thoughts. Nolesaint... playing in the A10 might actually hurt attendance. The attendance for the last 5 A10 games at the TUC is actually well below the season average even after subtracting out the UA game. The Numbers: SBU (11/11)6,067, Fordham (12/11) 5,476, UMass (11/12) 5,739, LaSalle (12/12) 5,907, SBU (11/13) 5,654. Average attendance (after removing UA game) 2011-2012 season - 6,375 2012-2013 season - 6,063. Even SPU drew 6,299 last year and 7,095 the year before that. We'll see how the Fordham game goes Monday night but I would be surprised if they crack 6,000. And these are the teams that would be coming to the TUC on a regular basis in the new A10 (Fordham, LaSalle, UMass, SBU). Hockeyguy - admittedly I could be wrong but I think those less than stellar attendance figures can be attributed to any of a number of factors: 1 - The PW 2 - Losing; see 1 3 - Boring style of basketball; see 1 4 - Weather; cold, snow, etc 5 - Lack of inspiration - both teams bad and the game for all intents and purposes means nothing. While the SPC game could decide who ends up in the PIG; see 1 6 - Surely there are many other possible explanations including I could be wrong but until proven otherwise I remain confident in my position that A10 league games will far outdraw MAAC league games on Siena's home court. Don't forget 90% of the home games are available on TW Cable, so why go out in the cold when you can stay home and drink your $5 6-pack?
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Dec 27, 2013 13:06:16 GMT -5
Hockeyguy - admittedly I could be wrong but I think those less than stellar attendance figures can be attributed to any of a number of factors: 1 - The PW 2 - Losing; see 1 3 - Boring style of basketball; see 1 4 - Weather; cold, snow, etc 5 - Lack of inspiration - both teams bad and the game for all intents and purposes means nothing. While the SPC game could decide who ends up in the PIG; see 1 6 - Surely there are many other possible explanations including I could be wrong but until proven otherwise I remain confident in my position that A10 league games will far outdraw MAAC league games on Siena's home court. Don't forget 90% of the home games are available on TW Cable, so why go out in the cold when you can stay home and drink your $5 6-pack? In the comfort of a double wide. Woo hooo! Ain't tv great!
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drj65
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Post by drj65 on Dec 27, 2013 17:49:11 GMT -5
I don't know how to attach anything or how to open a new thread. The NY Times has an excellent story on the Monmouth head coach. I hope somebody who can expand this is able to read the story and post it.
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