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Post by gosaints on Jan 28, 2018 9:33:34 GMT -5
Apparently not anyone. Some teams and players have excelled under JP. Let me ask you this, why has Jimmy been able to win and be well above .500 during some seasons (Both at Loyola and Siena) and others he has not? Same coach, same coaching style, same coaching philosophy. The difference IMO is the players and the talent level of those players. My beef with JP is less about his coaching and more about his recruiting and retaining of players. His record shows that when he has quality players he can win in the MAAC: www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/jimmy-patsos-1.html. I get it that a lot of people on here do not like his coaching style or personality. He is a polarizing figure in many ways. But he is who he is. Players know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up play for him. So people can continue to say that this team is talented and can win. I do not see it. If Jimmy could win with the group he would. He hasn't and he can't. Do you think he wants to lose? If he had recruited and retained enough quality players while at Siena he would have a winning record and would have a winning season this year. The bottom line he did not do that. Hence the loosing record. "He hasn't and he can't" win with this group because "So So" cannot develop and coach players. He pretty much can only win with players that can figure it out for themselves and get it done.
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legacy
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Post by legacy on Jan 28, 2018 10:21:05 GMT -5
agreed @ gosaints. How about putting the blame on the adult in charge? FYI teachers are graded in their APPR by whether or not their students pass...and by their level of success (mastery). I know this is not a true analogy but it's pretty close. He actually has it easier-all of his "students" are motivated and talented, much like an honors or AP class. Interesting isn't it? My a$$ would have been grass early on if my annual performance was even close to his.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Jan 28, 2018 10:49:30 GMT -5
Apparently not anyone. Some teams and players have excelled under JP. Let me ask you this, why has Jimmy been able to win and be well above .500 during some seasons (Both at Loyola and Siena) and others he has not? Same coach, same coaching style, same coaching philosophy. The difference IMO is the players and the talent level of those players. My beef with JP is less about his coaching and more about his recruiting and retaining of players. His record shows that when he has quality players he can win in the MAAC: www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/jimmy-patsos-1.html. I get it that a lot of people on here do not like his coaching style or personality. He is a polarizing figure in many ways. But he is who he is. Players know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up play for him. So people can continue to say that this team is talented and can win. I do not see it. If Jimmy could win with the group he would. He hasn't and he can't. Do you think he wants to lose? If he had recruited and retained enough quality players while at Siena he would have a winning record and would have a winning season this year. The bottom line he did not do that. Hence the loosing record. "He hasn't and he can't" win with this group because "So So" cannot develop and coach players. He pretty much can only win with players that can figure it out for themselves and get it done. So the years that JP had winning records, it was because players figured it out and got it done? How does that happen under a coach who controls every aspect of his team? Are you saying it has noting to do with the talent of the player? I am trying to understand your statement. BTW, the blame is being put on the coach, he has recruited players while at Siena that are mostly not MAAC quality players. This is not the kids fault. This is on the HQ and his staff. By all accounts, players are good kids, who work hard and are trying their best. When the opposing team has more talent and when the individual players matched up are more talented, you will lose more games than you win. Combine that with a "SO SO" coach and you get the results you have. Bring in talented players, where team is more talented, individual match ups are more talented, even with "So So" coach you will win more games.
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legacy
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Post by legacy on Jan 28, 2018 11:54:06 GMT -5
I understand your stance hoopdad but it's not as simple an equation as you make it. talent is one variable but you can't discount coaching as an equal one. he did have 4 1000 pt scorers last year. as far as blame being assigned to him- I disagree. How's this being addressed besides his patented "that's on me statement" which has been repeated so many times it's meaningless
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 12:01:32 GMT -5
This sounds like a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" dilemma - So-so is the recruiter-in-chief - he makes yes or no decisions on each and every recruit that is found/recommended by a)his staff, b)a friend, i.e., another coach, or c)himself. Most, I'm guessing come in via a) and we have had a few come in via b) - recruits coming in by option c) are unlikely and, in any event, we'd likely not know so-so recruited them until they achieved all-MAAC status or something close to that down the road in their career here. In his painfully long 4+ years here, we've heard him berate prior assistants for poor performance re recruiting. The one's he's id'd that way have seen a parting of the ways. Since these were not isolated occurrences, it would be reasonable to assume that so-so would have stepped up the assistant coach vetting process and annual performance appraisal event (if they even do that). If the current class deficiencies can be traced back to one or more assistants not doing their job, the blame rests solely with so-so as he clearly isn't doing his. Recruits coming in via b) have, in my memory, been dismal flops/wasted scholarships. So-so owns them on his own. As to c), if some have come via so-so's discoveries, again, he isn't doing the job he needs to do.
We seem to have a history of "surprises" when it comes to recruits that actually arrive - some are slow a foot, some are slow to shoot, some are foul prone, some are poor defenders, and some have proven to be causes of team chemistry issues. Good coaches/staffs go watch those recruits that they are most high on and likely to accept offers to see for themselves if a)recommendations are in-line with how the kid plays in more than one viewing and b)to ensure that none of the "surprises" exist. I have no clue how many visits are made but it seems to me that the many surprises we see on campus couldn't have been hidden for long periods. If PO was manifesting plantar fasciitis earlier (I suspect it was there earlier and the reason that the interest in him diminished), whoever on staff was following him should have seen a drop in performance. If they knew he had the condition, they didn't do their homework as to potential impact (pun not intended) of that ailment. In any event, so-so owns that failure as well.
Bottom line - our talent level is so-so's failure. The inability to correct some of the correctable surprises is owned by so-so and his staff.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Jan 28, 2018 12:37:35 GMT -5
"He hasn't and he can't" win with this group because "So So" cannot develop and coach players. He pretty much can only win with players that can figure it out for themselves and get it done. So the years that JP had winning records, it was because players figured it out and got it done? How does that happen under a coach who controls every aspect of his team? Are you saying it has noting to do with the talent of the player? I am trying to understand your statement. BTW, the blame is being put on the coach, he has recruited players while at Siena that are mostly not MAAC quality players. This is not the kids fault. This is on the HQ and his staff. By all accounts, players are good kids, who work hard and are trying their best. When the opposing team has more talent and when the individual players matched up are more talented, you will lose more games than you win. Combine that with a "SO SO" coach and you get the results you have. Bring in talented players, where team is more talented, individual match ups are more talented, even with "So So" coach you will win more games. Certainly, as evidenced by patsos own coaching resume. However patsos has a ceiling that is lower than the ceiling Siena has reached in the past on multiple occasions. It’s time to move on when Siena is in the financial position to do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 13:16:07 GMT -5
I personally can’t wait for this season to end.
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Jan 28, 2018 14:02:04 GMT -5
I personally can’t wait for this season to end. Sadly I find myself in a similar mindset and it kills me for the kids!
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Post by gosaints on Jan 28, 2018 15:20:45 GMT -5
"He hasn't and he can't" win with this group because "So So" cannot develop and coach players. He pretty much can only win with players that can figure it out for themselves and get it done. So the years that JP had winning records, it was because players figured it out and got it done? How does that happen under a coach who controls every aspect of his team? Are you saying it has noting to do with the talent of the player? I am trying to understand your statement. BTW, the blame is being put on the coach, he has recruited players while at Siena that are mostly not MAAC quality players. This is not the kids fault. This is on the HQ and his staff. By all accounts, players are good kids, who work hard and are trying their best. When the opposing team has more talent and when the individual players matched up are more talented, you will lose more games than you win. Combine that with a "SO SO" coach and you get the results you have. Bring in talented players, where team is more talented, individual match ups are more talented, even with "So So" coach you will win more games. Hoopdad my comment pertained to the players currently on the team. He hasn't developed them and the "proof in in the pudding", he can't coach them. Yes you are right in that if he got more talented players in he would win more but more to their doing and not his.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Jan 28, 2018 15:40:49 GMT -5
How about guys on the team and step up and show some balls and quit f ing up. If some want to blame poor performance on coaches and not the players you have your opinion. slight correction from my point of view... I blame the coach for recruiting an entire roster of players that shouldnt be here. I stand by that comment. Sure a couple can make a bucket here or there etc. But none of these players are capable of being starters on a team that consistently wins at this level. Its a bunch of low D1 / D2 players. You cant get blood from a stone. Now... some of that falls on the players faults for signing at a level they dont belong. Much of it is on trusting the coach to know that you do belong. These guys have a coach who wants to phone in recruiting so as to finish up in April in order to get to the important things like vacation. Most here have been watching Mitch and Rex teams for almost 8 years now..... I guess for some it’s just far too hard to remember what real D1 Mid Major basketball/talent looks like.
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Post by MTS on Jan 28, 2018 16:25:42 GMT -5
I personally can’t wait for this season to end. Sadly I find myself in a similar mindset and it kills me for the kids! Amen. It's very very sad. It's much more sad/bitter/apathy than anger at this point. I used to be pumped for EVERY game Siena (read every article listed to pre/post games, checked the RPI) and now I watch them only as an "obligation". My interest in college basketball is way down too - other than March of course. The worst part is I'm conflicted about the outcome of the games - neither results at this point is truly good for the program.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 16:28:55 GMT -5
slight correction from my point of view... I blame the coach for recruiting an entire roster of players that shouldnt be here. I stand by that comment. Sure a couple can make a bucket here or there etc. But none of these players are capable of being starters on a team that consistently wins at this level. Its a bunch of low D1 / D2 players. You cant get blood from a stone. Now... some of that falls on the players faults for signing at a level they dont belong. Much of it is on trusting the coach to know that you do belong. These guys have a coach who wants to phone in recruiting so as to finish up in April in order to get to the important things like vacation. Most here have been watching Mitch and Rex teams for almost 8 years now..... I guess for some it’s just far too hard to remember what real D1 Mid Major basketball/talent looks like. Watched Kevin's game vs Michigan State and you are so right - the game they play bears little resemblance to what we have become used to - I realize, before Papi injures his fingers posting the obvious, that the talent levels are worlds apart but watching the coaches in action was a treat - rotations that make sense, effective play calling coming off time outs, many offensive opportunities designed into each play called with execution by first good opportunity, and excellent clock management. Turgeon obviously wants Kevin on the floor as much as possible - he's brilliant how he takes him out with a minute or less before the next media TO, let's him rest during the TO and then sends him to the table right after the inbound play. TO's called when needed not called out of emotion - it still galls me how many times so-so has killed our own runs with a senseless TO. The Terps lost but it was a hell of a game and very enjoyable viewing....
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Post by greenblood on Jan 28, 2018 17:01:43 GMT -5
Agree. I love watching two good strategic coaches go at it. Last night I watched Calipari erase a big West Virginia lead with his 'forever young' team. Again I realize there is a talent difference at that level but the KY coaching staff made significant decisions to erase the deficit and take command at one of the most difficult venues to win at.
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Jan 28, 2018 17:08:53 GMT -5
Yeah i was at that game no that hard to beat West Virginia if they can't press.They have one of the worst offenses they run the flex.If they're not turning you over and getting easy buckets.Half court offense is bad that's why they blew 2 10+leads Texas tech and Kansas.They remind me of Manhattan if not generating turnovers half court offense bad.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Jan 28, 2018 17:16:02 GMT -5
Agree. I love watching two good strategic coaches go at it. Last night I watched Calipari erase a big West Virginia lead with his 'forever young' team. Again I realize there is a talent difference at that level but the KY coaching staff made significant decisions to erase the deficit and take command at one of the most difficult venues to win at. Agreed, however they only can have success by making these adjustments and have them executed if they have the talent to carry it out. Young or not KY has very talented players.
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