OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Aug 1, 2022 20:25:49 GMT -5
What's the basis for your assumption that any of them are slightly less talented players besides the 3 for 4 deals? Coyle had an four year A-10 scholarship offer that fell through because the coach got fired. And he's ranked 8 spots higher than Amari Tice on NERR. That resume doesn't suggest the staff is settling for a slightly less talented player in his case at least. Nerr ranking is janky outside of the top few. You’re going to try and make an argument Coyle has more upside than Tice based on NERR? Sorry that doesn’t hold water. Still think Tice is the better player. I’m not a fan of this years recruiting class outside of 1 or maybe 2 kids. This is probably Billups and McCollum’s last year here, you needed to fill the holes around them, I think Carm missed an opportunity here. Too many reaches and gambles.
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Aug 1, 2022 20:34:11 GMT -5
What's the basis for your assumption that any of them are slightly less talented players besides the 3 for 4 deals? Coyle had an four year A-10 scholarship offer that fell through because the coach got fired. And he's ranked 8 spots higher than Amari Tice on NERR. That resume doesn't suggest the staff is settling for a slightly less talented player in his case at least. Nerr ranking is janky outside of the top few. You’re going to try and make an argument Coyle has more upside than Tice based on NERR? Sorry that doesn’t hold water. Still think Tice is the better player. I’m not a fan of this years recruiting class outside of 1 or 2 kids. This is probably Billups and McCollum’s last year here, you needed to fill the holes around them, I think Carm missed an opportunity here. Too many reaches and gambles. I’m really hoping Eley is good. I can’t believe we couldn’t do better than the back up center we got
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Aug 2, 2022 0:11:50 GMT -5
What's the basis for your assumption that any of them are slightly less talented players besides the 3 for 4 deals? Coyle had an four year A-10 scholarship offer that fell through because the coach got fired. And he's ranked 8 spots higher than Amari Tice on NERR. That resume doesn't suggest the staff is settling for a slightly less talented player in his case at least. Nerr ranking is janky outside of the top few. You’re going to try and make an argument Coyle has more upside than Tice based on NERR? Sorry that doesn’t hold water. Still think Tice is the better player. I’m not a fan of this years recruiting class outside of 1 or maybe 2 kids. This is probably Billups and McCollum’s last year here, you needed to fill the holes around them, I think Carm missed an opportunity here. Too many reaches and gambles. I'm not making an argument Coyle has more upside than Tice based on NERR. That remains to be seen. I'm making the argument that Coyle isn't some also-ran player just because he's walking on his first year. His NERR ranking is just one component of that argument, as is the fact that he and Tice had the same highest offer - UMass. So I'm not sure why Tice gets so much love, while Coyle is comparatively frowned upon. Some of the same coaches who evaluated both wanted both. That ought to clue people in on something. Killian Gribben's recruitment I could understand people questioning, as he's down in D2 level in that ranking. But Coyle has the resume of a typical mid-major scholarship level player.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Aug 2, 2022 0:18:53 GMT -5
Nerr ranking is janky outside of the top few. You’re going to try and make an argument Coyle has more upside than Tice based on NERR? Sorry that doesn’t hold water. Still think Tice is the better player. I’m not a fan of this years recruiting class outside of 1 or 2 kids. This is probably Billups and McCollum’s last year here, you needed to fill the holes around them, I think Carm missed an opportunity here. Too many reaches and gambles. I’m really hoping Eley is good. I can’t believe we couldn’t do better than the back up center we got Can you direct us towards programs at Siena's level that secured vastly superior back-up centers as a point of reference that exemplifies how the staff could have done better filing that role? I'm curious to see who was better out there that Siena should have realistically secured for the role that a peer snatched up instead.
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Aug 2, 2022 5:17:50 GMT -5
I’m really hoping Eley is good. I can’t believe we couldn’t do better than the back up center we got Can you direct us towards programs at Siena's level that secured vastly superior back-up centers as a point of reference that exemplifies how the staff could have done better filing that role? I'm curious to see who was better out there that Siena should have realistically secured for the role that a peer snatched up instead. Follow recruiting closely like I do and you would know the answer.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Aug 2, 2022 7:29:33 GMT -5
Can you direct us towards programs at Siena's level that secured vastly superior back-up centers as a point of reference that exemplifies how the staff could have done better filing that role? I'm curious to see who was better out there that Siena should have realistically secured for the role that a peer snatched up instead. Follow recruiting closely like I do and you would know the answer. For those of us who do not follow recruiting closely like you do, please do share your answer. Inquiring minds would like to know and will appreciate the insight.
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Post by saints15 on Aug 2, 2022 7:35:27 GMT -5
What's the basis for your assumption that any of them are slightly less talented players besides the 3 for 4 deals? Coyle had an four year A-10 scholarship offer that fell through because the coach got fired. And he's ranked 8 spots higher than Amari Tice on NERR. That resume doesn't suggest the staff is settling for a slightly less talented player in his case at least. Its my understanding that offer was made early in the recruiting cycle, when a lot of offers are thrown out there, and was later pulled. But regardless, if Coyle, or any of the other 3 for 4’s were so good, why didn’t he/they get any other offers? As for Tice, once you get past the top 10 players those rankings are spotty at best. When that debate came up with Tice/Coyle I asked if anyone had actually seen both play. I did get an answer from someone that had and he said that Tice was clearly the better player. Since every other D1 coach concluded Coyle, and the others, weren’t worth a 4 year offer, that concerns me. Again, I am not saying it’s a bad strategy for your last 1-2 scholarships but Carm seemed to be saying it would be an ongoing approach where he would take a player like that every year. Maybe I read to much into it, but if it’s me I am finding the very best players I can for those 13 scholarships. I also think the idea that those players are more likely to stay, isn’t a sure thing. While some may say…I’m loyal because the coach gave me a shot, I think it’s just as likely they could feel they got screwed by having to prove themselves and could jump at better offers.
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glen
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Post by glen on Aug 2, 2022 7:56:40 GMT -5
The landscape has changed. I don't think the 4-year player will be the norm going forward. You hope they stay but can't count on it. Recruiting lesser players so they stay seems similar to recruiting a lesser coach so he stays. They may stay but will you be happy with the result? Coaches are expected to develop players...making good players great and great players even better. You can't have a full roster of developmental players. Even if they stay 4 years, you'll never have enough firepower to be very competitive...and certainly not when playing up.
There's a reason CBB coaches get a boatload of money. They earn every penny. I still think Carm can be a very good coach but it is going to take him some time to figure out how to be successful in the new world. Hopefully he figures it out sooner than later.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Aug 2, 2022 8:04:14 GMT -5
The landscape has changed. I don't think the 4-year player will be the norm going forward. You hope they stay but can't count on it. Recruiting lesser players so they stay seems similar to recruiting a lesser coach so he stays. They may stay but will you be happy with the result? Coaches are expected to develop players...making good players great and great players even better. You can't have a full roster of developmental players. Even if they stay 4 years, you'll never have enough firepower to be very competitive...and certainly not when playing up. There's a reason CBB coaches get a boatload of money. They earn every penny. I still think Carm can be a very good coach but it is going to take him some time to figure out how to be successful in the new world. Hopefully he figures it out sooner than later. IMO Carm has already proven that he is a "Good" coach. The bigger question is can he be a "Great" coach like a few of his predecessors were?
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Aug 2, 2022 9:41:34 GMT -5
Carm’s goal is to win MAAC Championships and win some NACC games.
If this is the method he’s choosing to recruit I’m fine with it.
He hasn’t disappointed (me) since he’s been our coach.
Time will tell but I support him and the team he assembles.
Are there better, more talented recruits he could have gotten; probably but would they fit his other criteria (check boxes) whatever those are? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe some of those more talented players didn’t want to come to Siena for whatever reason.
I’m ok with the team he’s assembled and we haven’t even seen them play yet. Who knows they may surprise many or reconfirm your concerns..
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Aug 2, 2022 10:52:28 GMT -5
What's the basis for your assumption that any of them are slightly less talented players besides the 3 for 4 deals? Coyle had an four year A-10 scholarship offer that fell through because the coach got fired. And he's ranked 8 spots higher than Amari Tice on NERR. That resume doesn't suggest the staff is settling for a slightly less talented player in his case at least. Its my understanding that offer was made early in the recruiting cycle, when a lot of offers are thrown out there, and was later pulled. But regardless, if Coyle, or any of the other 3 for 4’s were so good, why didn’t he/they get any other offers? As for Tice, once you get past the top 10 players those rankings are spotty at best. When that debate came up with Tice/Coyle I asked if anyone had actually seen both play. I did get an answer from someone that had and he said that Tice was clearly the better player. Since every other D1 coach concluded Coyle, and the others, weren’t worth a 4 year offer, that concerns me. Again, I am not saying it’s a bad strategy for your last 1-2 scholarships but Carm seemed to be saying it would be an ongoing approach where he would take a player like that every year. Maybe I read to much into it, but if it’s me I am finding the very best players I can for those 13 scholarships. I also think the idea that those players are more likely to stay, isn’t a sure thing. While some may say…I’m loyal because the coach gave me a shot, I think it’s just as likely they could feel they got screwed by having to prove themselves and could jump at better offers. Coyle did have other offers. In addition to Siena and UMass, he was also offered by Albany. As a for looking for the very best players, if they're all fickle headcases that end up at 3 different schools in 4 years, it's not worth it. And that seems to be where the sport is mostly headed. Better to try to build a roster that's consistent. A team full of transfers plus one and dones every season isn't going to work. They tried it last season and you saw how terrible the team was until it meshed. I for one am glad Carm's trying something different in order to operate in today's college hoops reality. I don't want teams that annually suck until January. So let's see if doing it this way bears any fruit. Maybe it won't. But let's not knock it until we've tried it and it's a failed experiment. That's all I'm saying.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Aug 2, 2022 16:05:23 GMT -5
Its my understanding that offer was made early in the recruiting cycle, when a lot of offers are thrown out there, and was later pulled. But regardless, if Coyle, or any of the other 3 for 4’s were so good, why didn’t he/they get any other offers? As for Tice, once you get past the top 10 players those rankings are spotty at best. When that debate came up with Tice/Coyle I asked if anyone had actually seen both play. I did get an answer from someone that had and he said that Tice was clearly the better player. Since every other D1 coach concluded Coyle, and the others, weren’t worth a 4 year offer, that concerns me. Again, I am not saying it’s a bad strategy for your last 1-2 scholarships but Carm seemed to be saying it would be an ongoing approach where he would take a player like that every year. Maybe I read to much into it, but if it’s me I am finding the very best players I can for those 13 scholarships. I also think the idea that those players are more likely to stay, isn’t a sure thing. While some may say…I’m loyal because the coach gave me a shot, I think it’s just as likely they could feel they got screwed by having to prove themselves and could jump at better offers. Coyle did have other offers. In addition to Siena and UMass, he was also offered by Albany. As a for looking for the very best players, if they're all fickle headcases that end up at 3 different schools in 4 years, it's not worth it. And that seems to be where the sport is mostly headed. Better to try to build a roster that's consistent. A team full of transfers plus one and dones every season isn't going to work. They tried it last season and you saw how terrible the team was until it meshed. I for one am glad Carm's trying something different in order to operate in today's college hoops reality. I don't want teams that annually suck until January. So let's see if doing it this way bears any fruit. Maybe it won't. But let's not knock it until we've tried it and it's a failed experiment. That's all I'm saying. At least the roster was good enough to “mesh”! Try that with a roster chock full of mediocrity. I’m not a fan of pulling for uniforms either but unfortunately it’s not going to work the way you’d like. There isn’t going to be any consistency, players who perform above the MAAC level will transfer out. BTW 3 - 4 King transferred, remember? No guarantees with anyone you bring in, not with these rules. Better get use to the revolving door roster, especially if the number of times you can transfer goes without penalty & doesn’t have a cap. If we’re recruiting kids just because they’ll stay and provide continuity, good luck. We’re still going to need to recruit talent. If kids stay here 1 or 2 cycles so be it. Unfortunately it’s the game the NCAA created. The current situation isn’t all that different from when Siena’s “better” coaches moved on AND up when they exceeded expectations. Under the current rules players are now afforded the same mobility as coaches.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on Aug 3, 2022 17:11:44 GMT -5
It is going to be very important that Carm not burn bridges with anyone that decides to leave. With the new transfer rule if guys like Billups and McCollum are looking to transfer after next year then Carm should support them in that and let them know there is always a home for them in the Siena family if the grass doesn't turn out to be greener. If Carm acts like a jilted lover whenever a player leaves then he's going to miss out on the opportunity to get them back later. I have a feeling many of the more successful coaches at the midmajor level are going to be those that recruit kids on the pitch that they will help them get to a higher level and if it doesn't work out then they will be welcome to come back. In this era of basketball I can live with getting the freshman and senior years out of recruits and often get them for either the sophomore or junior year as well. Sure beats a revolving door of one and dones.
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Aug 4, 2022 8:10:40 GMT -5
It is going to be very important that Carm not burn bridges with anyone that decides to leave. With the new transfer rule if guys like Billups and McCollum are looking to transfer after next year then Carm should support them in that and let them know there is always a home for them in the Siena family if the grass doesn't turn out to be greener. If Carm acts like a jilted lover whenever a player leaves then he's going to miss out on the opportunity to get them back later. I have a feeling many of the more successful coaches at the midmajor level are going to be those that recruit kids on the pitch that they will help them get to a higher level and if it doesn't work out then they will be welcome to come back. In this era of basketball I can live with getting the freshman and senior years out of recruits and often get them for either the sophomore or junior year as well. Sure beats a revolving door of one and dones. I don’t see Carm “burning bridges” for anyone leaving Siena. What I do see is after being burned going the portal (transfer into Siena) route; he and staff are looking for different alternatives to relying solely on that transfer in portal option. Let’s not blow things out of porportions/context.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Aug 4, 2022 8:18:45 GMT -5
It is going to be very important that Carm not burn bridges with anyone that decides to leave. With the new transfer rule if guys like Billups and McCollum are looking to transfer after next year then Carm should support them in that and let them know there is always a home for them in the Siena family if the grass doesn't turn out to be greener. If Carm acts like a jilted lover whenever a player leaves then he's going to miss out on the opportunity to get them back later. I have a feeling many of the more successful coaches at the midmajor level are going to be those that recruit kids on the pitch that they will help them get to a higher level and if it doesn't work out then they will be welcome to come back. In this era of basketball I can live with getting the freshman and senior years out of recruits and often get them for either the sophomore or junior year as well. Sure beats a revolving door of one and dones. I completely disagree with your strategy of pitching kids that you will help them get to a higher level. That makes absolutely no sense. You pitch them on your school and program, and you pitch them again after every season to keep them there. And very unlikely a kid will return to a program once he has left and played for another. He may transfer again, but not to one that he previously played for.
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