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Post by gosaints on Dec 12, 2017 14:27:34 GMT -5
Anyway you cut your looking at 13-18 give or take. This may be a hot take, but if this team goes .500 or above in MAAC play (13-18 would be 9-9 or 10-8 in MAAC play depending on final 3 OOC results), I’d be pleased given we have a young team. I’d be okay with riding t out 1 more year with all these guys getting a year to mature. Can You, I or anyone else for that matter really put up with Pastos's antics, coaching style or BS for anther year? There was a time that I never would miss a Siena game however I've approached the point where I don't care one way or the other anymore. Remember the reason we have such a "young" team is because of the lousy job Pastos has done on the recruiting trail and the players he's had to run off as a result.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Dec 12, 2017 14:43:07 GMT -5
This may be a hot take, but if this team goes .500 or above in MAAC play (13-18 would be 9-9 or 10-8 in MAAC play depending on final 3 OOC results), I’d be pleased given we have a young team. I’d be okay with riding t out 1 more year with all these guys getting a year to mature. Can You, I or anyone else for that matter really put up with Pastos's antics, coaching style or BS for anther year? There was a time that I never would miss a Siena game however I've approached the point where I don't care one way or the other anymore. Remember the reason we have such a "young" team is because of the lousy job Pastos has done on the recruiting trail and the players he's had to run off as a result. Okay, let’s say he goes 9-9 or 10-8 in MAAC play. He now brings back 5 starters, including 2 sophomores who will have challenged for all-rookie honors as freshmen. Then we add a couple of freshmen to work off the bench in Wojcik and perhaps Dom Welch. We’d be a real contender in the MAAC on paper. I don’t love JP’s style, but I’m willing to ride it out to keep a Core together for another crack at it with Nico as a senior. That’s my line. If he gets to .500 in MAAC play, he deserves to get another chance. .500 the year after losing 4 starters is more than satisfactory (and if not for last season’s struggles, might have gotten him an extension).
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Post by MTS on Dec 12, 2017 14:47:10 GMT -5
I think 1 or probably two years is probably the likely scenario. But, just like patsos makes offers even though we have a full complement of scholarships, Siena should put out feelers this year to see who else is out there and is ready to take on the responsibility of directing a top 150 ncaa division 1 program the right way. He should be gone in March but because of this incompetent administration and their negotiation "skills" he probably comes back next year. If he goes .500 or less or even 18-14 next year he's gone I can't see him surviving past next year. As I've said many time Siena's economic model is not sustainable for being bad this long. Even if the contract is fully guaranteed until 2021 Siena pretty much will have to eat 2019-20 and 2020-21. If they can't fire Jimmy after this year - I'd fire D'Arg. Give the fanbase something. You'll have the season ticket base under 1,000 pretty soon. IndianSaint is a terrific fan but there's much more of us than him. The corporate sponsorships will dry up. Siena can't have it both ways. If you're going to run the program like a low-major go back to the ARC and charge $8 a ticket. Otherwise sweeping changes have to be made. A good coach can make Siena a top 75 program consistently.
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Post by MTS on Dec 12, 2017 14:48:39 GMT -5
Can You, I or anyone else for that matter really put up with Pastos's antics, coaching style or BS for anther year? There was a time that I never would miss a Siena game however I've approached the point where I don't care one way or the other anymore. Remember the reason we have such a "young" team is because of the lousy job Pastos has done on the recruiting trail and the players he's had to run off as a result. Okay, let’s say he goes 9-9 or 10-8 in MAAC play. He now brings back 5 starters, including 2 sophomores who will have challenged for all-rookie honors as freshmen. Then we add a couple of freshmen to work off the bench in Wojcik and perhaps Dom Welch. We’d be a real contender in the MAAC on paper. I don’t love JP’s style, but I’m willing to ride it out to keep a Core together for another crack at it with Nico as a senior. That’s my line. If he gets to .500 in MAAC play, he deserves to get another chance. .500 the year after losing 4 starters is more than satisfactory (and if not for last season’s struggles, might have gotten him an extension). .500 season graduating 4 seniors would have been much more tolerable with 25 wins and another banner hanging in the TUC (and not the CBI)
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Dec 12, 2017 16:00:32 GMT -5
Let’s face it: 2-8 happened, and we probably couldn’t have reasonably expected to be more than 3-7 with the gauntlet of a schedule we had. Now comes the much more reasonable stretch of games, where we have a chance to really find our stride and put together some wins. 12/17: at Bryant (1-10) 12/20: at Memphis (6-2, but have played tight game with several mid-majors) 12/22: Holy Cross (3-6) MAAC PLAY BEGINS 12/29: at Marist (2-8) 1/1: Quinnipiac (3-7) 1/5: Niagara (4-6) 1/7: Canisius (4-6) There’s no reason why we can’t win 2 of the 3 remaining OOC games and at least 3 of the first 4 MAAC games. If the team gets on a bit of a roll and starts to gain confidence, who knows what will happen. If this stretch goes poorly, then I’ll be ready to pull out the pitchforks and start naming candidates. Let’s hope for a big regroup this week in practice. GO SAINTS. Hate to again point out the obvious, this team is on a cycle of good/decent showing followed by a blowout. I'd expect wins or at least competitive games vs Bryant, Holy Cross, Q and Canisius. If history repeats, blow outs at Memphis, Marist and home to Niagara.
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Post by Tony on Dec 12, 2017 16:37:07 GMT -5
Goldsaint also had us winning minimum 5 games against this non conf schedule with 6 or 7 wins likely. Before we decide to give jimmy another year, lets see how this year pans out. What if any mid season transfers. And how siena fans react. Seems to me if tuc is a mausoleum by late January early February. In short way too early to talk about another year of this train wreck of a staff I said my target was 5 wins (we are 1 win off that pace) and hoped for 6-7 (given that we lost 2 in OT and another had the lead with 4 mins to play, those predictions were pretty reasonable) IIRC. I’m not trying to keep JP. I’m trying to see what happens next. Calling for the coach to be fired in December does nothing. Actually you said minimal you would accept was 5 wins-- whatever that means As for calling for the coach to be fired in December--ummm no I ever said that. My point is the current coach will have 4 out of 5 losing regular seasons at end of this year- he is currently 2-8. His recruiting has been horrible. He is divisive coach- fans and sponsors are bailing on program- and you want to talk about giving him 1 more year on December 12 with 2-8 record? Because of contract and financial liabilities we very well may be stuck with coach another year or two- in which case he will continue to hurt the brand- with falling attendance and losing sponsors- who wants to be associated with losing program? Since nobody can say definitely what the buyout is, I continue to hope that this is JP’s last year at Siena.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Dec 12, 2017 16:42:41 GMT -5
I said my target was 5 wins (we are 1 win off that pace) and hoped for 6-7 (given that we lost 2 in OT and another had the lead with 4 mins to play, those predictions were pretty reasonable) IIRC. I’m not trying to keep JP. I’m trying to see what happens next. Calling for the coach to be fired in December does nothing. Actually you said minimal you would accept was 5 wins-- whatever that means As for calling for the coach to be fired in December--ummm no I ever said that. My point is the current coach will have 4 out of 5 losing regular seasons at end of this year- he is currently 2-8. His recruiting has been horrible. He is divisive coach- fans and sponsors are bailing on program- and you want to talk about giving him 1 more year on December 12 with 2-8 record? Because of contract and financial liabilities we very well may be stuck with coach another year or two- in which case he will continue to hurt the brand- with falling attendance and losing sponsors- who wants to be associated with losing program? Since nobody can say definitely what the buyout is, I continue to hope that this is JP’s last year at Siena. I’m hoping the team wins. If the amount of wins warrants keeping Patsos, then I’ll be perfectly fine with that. If the team loses, I’ll be searching for a new coach and will be supporting him fully. I have plenty of complaints with how JP has managed some things this season. But I’m not going to make judgments until at least after they handle this stretch of winnable games.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 12, 2017 16:53:49 GMT -5
Can You, I or anyone else for that matter really put up with Pastos's antics, coaching style or BS for anther year? There was a time that I never would miss a Siena game however I've approached the point where I don't care one way or the other anymore. Remember the reason we have such a "young" team is because of the lousy job Pastos has done on the recruiting trail and the players he's had to run off as a result. Okay, let’s say he goes 9-9 or 10-8 in MAAC play. He now brings back 5 starters, including 2 sophomores who will have challenged for all-rookie honors as freshmen. Then we add a couple of freshmen to work off the bench in Wojcik and perhaps Dom Welch. We’d be a real contender in the MAAC on paper. I don’t love JP’s style, but I’m willing to ride it out to keep a Core together for another crack at it with Nico as a senior. That’s my line. If he gets to .500 in MAAC play, he deserves to get another chance. .500 the year after losing 4 starters is more than satisfactory (and if not for last season’s struggles, might have gotten him an extension). What don’t you get, he’s an awful coach and can’t recruit. So now he needs to run-off 1/2 his current roster to make room for more players he can’t coach. I’ve seen that trick before and it hasn’t worked in the first 4 years. Give me a break. FIVE years is ample time to prove whether or not you have the chops or you don’t. IMO it’s been an epic fail. Talent doesn’t matter with this guy he’ll find away to screw it up. He had 4 1k point scorers last year and imploded - the season was a debacle. Disciplinary issues, players underachieving, a player taking a “vacation” mid-season and a total lack of an ability to develop any kind of team chemistry. Sorry I’ve seen enough. The return does not out weigh the risk and guarantees $hit. I’ll even go as far as to say next year would be another 500 season with a boatload of footnotes and excuses just like all the previous seasons. Bank it! Hell if I’m Penn and Oduro I’d be thinking very seriously about bailing. Both would do far better elsewhere I guarantee it... I’m sure Wright in hindsight wished he did.....
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Post by Tony on Dec 12, 2017 17:09:14 GMT -5
Actually you said minimal you would accept was 5 wins-- whatever that means As for calling for the coach to be fired in December--ummm no I ever said that. My point is the current coach will have 4 out of 5 losing regular seasons at end of this year- he is currently 2-8. His recruiting has been horrible. He is divisive coach- fans and sponsors are bailing on program- and you want to talk about giving him 1 more year on December 12 with 2-8 record? Because of contract and financial liabilities we very well may be stuck with coach another year or two- in which case he will continue to hurt the brand- with falling attendance and losing sponsors- who wants to be associated with losing program? Since nobody can say definitely what the buyout is, I continue to hope that this is JP’s last year at Siena. I’m hoping the team wins. If the amount of wins warrants keeping Patsos, then I’ll be perfectly fine with that. If the team loses, I’ll be searching for a new coach and will be supporting him fully. I have plenty of complaints with how JP has managed some things this season. But I’m not going to make judgments until at least after they handle this stretch of winnable games. let’s see what develops. I often say he isn’t stinky Jimmy. He has a 14 year history and 5 years at Siena. He is like watching Flintstones, you know what is going to happen next - JP will win about 12 games ( give or take 1 or 2 in either direction) After 5 years at Siena, its fairly obvious he isnt the man for Siena, he doesn’t win consistently enough, doesn't work enough in summer months to ever be a consistently good recruiter. And while I don’t want to disparage any individual kids, our overall talent level is extremely low - when Mid majors are smacking us-- if Becker wanted to embarrass his friend Jimbo he could have beat Siena by 40 points last night - that should not be happening against AE teams-- you know it-- I know it and most of the Siena fan base knows it. Question is pretty much can Siena get out of the contract at end of season
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Post by Tony on Dec 12, 2017 17:14:10 GMT -5
Question for Goldsaint
The real question is how long can real Siena fans support this fraud of a coach? Can you stand idly by while Siena fans bail, sponsors bail, and the overall program continue to decline? Can you honestly continue to support this coach in good faith knowing what he is doing to the Siena program?
I would say fine if you want to keep you options open till end of year- but realistically what if anything in this coach’s 14 year record as head coach makes you think he can turn it around?
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 12, 2017 17:18:08 GMT -5
I’m hoping the team wins. If the amount of wins warrants keeping Patsos, then I’ll be perfectly fine with that. If the team loses, I’ll be searching for a new coach and will be supporting him fully. I have plenty of complaints with how JP has managed some things this season. But I’m not going to make judgments until at least after they handle this stretch of winnable games. let’s see what develops. I often say he isn’t stinky Jimmy. He has a 14 year history and 5 years at Siena. He is like watching Flintstones, you know what is going to happen next - JP will win about 12 games ( give or take 1 or 2 in either direction) After 5 years at Siena, its fairly obvious he isnt the man for Siena, he doesn’t win consistently enough, doesn't work enough in summer months to ever be a consistently good recruiter. And while I don’t want to disparage any individual kids, our overall talent level is extremely low - when Mid majors are smacking us-- if Becker wanted to embarrass his friend Jimbo he could have beat Siena by 40 points last night - that should not be happening against AE teams-- you know it-- I know it and most of the Siena fan base knows it. Question is pretty much can Siena get out of the contract at end of season Tony gotta disagree he’s stinky Jimmy. He absolutely can not coach. Siena looked totally unprepared last night. That theme repeats itself many times throughout the season. That’s on the coach and staff. That’s a mark of a “stinky” coach!
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ltf
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Post by ltf on Dec 12, 2017 17:23:37 GMT -5
Why the optimism for next year given current roster plus 2 possible recruits. Roster is only part of the equation. Last year he had 4 1000 pt scorers plus 6th man of the year and did nothing. Organization, team chemistry and coaching ability also comes into play and we've never seen any of that.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Dec 12, 2017 17:58:53 GMT -5
Question for Goldsaint The real question is how long can real Siena fans support this fraud of a coach? Can you stand idly by while Siena fans bail, sponsors bail, and the overall program continue to decline? Can you honestly continue to support this coach in good faith knowing what he is doing to the Siena program? I would say fine if you want to keep you options open till end of year- but realistically what if anything in this coach’s 14 year record as head coach makes you think he can turn it around? This is a tough one for me. I am of the belief that with a bit of development (don’t say no one has developed under JP) this team COULD be right up there as a title contender in the MAAC next year. That remains to be seen, but it’s certianly not out of the question. If the only coach you (when I say you I am not singling our 1 person but a fanbase as a whole) will accept is a guy who is going to bring you runs of 20 win seasons year after year and several NCAA Tournaments, then JP needs to go after this year. He probably should have gone after last year in that case. Part of me wants to be in this camp, but I try to be realistic and look at things beyond just basketball. Siena isn’t in a position financially to make that a priority. Being highly competitive in the MAAC (like Siena has been each of the past 2 years) is what the institution is reasonably going to look for, with an NCAA appearance every 5-7 years the expectation. Let’s be real: JP won’t kill the program. He’ll win some MAAC games, make a few runs, make an NCAA Tournament occasionally, go on TV, etc. Firing him and making the wrong hire that brings us to the bottom of the MAAC for 3-5 years kills the program, possibly for good. And at this point, I don’t have much confidence that Dargenio would make a good hire for the program. So to be clear, I’m much more of an advocate of firing/reassigning Darg (I have several complaints with our athletic department, mainly with marketing, promotion, and social media) and then seeing how the chips fall. I’d love to envision having a Baker Dunleavy at the helm of this thing in 4 months, I think he’d absolutely crush it here. I just don’t know that I see it happening. Bit of a tangent here, but I follow the UMass program pretty closely as well. They have a young, energetic AD who has them running all kinds of promotions to get fans to games. He’s active on social media and actually interacts with fans when they have questions about things and tries to help improve things on the fan experience side. He made a slam dunk basketball hire this offseason who is recruiting well and the program is growing again. I’d love to see Siena finding a guy like that to Head their athletics department. That said, I guess I may be coming off the wrong way on some of these posts. I’m not trying to keep JP, nor am I trying to get rid of him. I’m simply playing devil’s advocate and trying to form some realistic expectations for this team, this year. I can’t control that some fans are leaving. I disagree with their decision to do so, and it’s not a move I could make myself. Those also aren’t the fans that an athletic department should be the most focused on, the ones who will leave every time they don’t like the coach, then return once things look bright again. I haven’t seen any sort of number on sponsors leaving, other than the stuff about Trustco and CapCom (which didn’t necessarily have anything to do with how he team is playing). I’m just feeling out whether or not what we have for the next 2 years (the Nico era) and evaluating what I think needs to happen. At this point, JP doesn’t NEED to be fired. That sentiment might literally change if we lose on Sunday. It might change next month, it might not change for 5 years. Now, there would be almost no realistic win total for this team that I would be angry if we fired JP after this season (maybe if we went 11-7 or better in the MAAC, but then I see no realistic way he’s fired). Thanks for reading my little rant everyone. Go Saints.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 12, 2017 18:57:49 GMT -5
Well thought out post. I don’t agree with all of it but I can see the reasoning. For me it boils down to Siena basketball just isn’t fun anymore. We have a coach who has had ample time to prove himself, and he hasn’t come close to the standards that long time Siena fans have come to expect. It’s not just about the maac for me. It’s about winning more than losing, championships, nit appearances, quality in season mid major wins, etc. and doing it the right way. believe it or not, I want to win games too, but consistently. It’s just not going to happen with this coach. Not now, or ever. The biggest question is not if, but when. Hopefully those that have all the $ facts can determine the best time. Until then, all I can do is wait, and hope I’m wrong (but I’m not).
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Post by MTS on Dec 12, 2017 19:51:30 GMT -5
Question for Goldsaint The real question is how long can real Siena fans support this fraud of a coach? Can you stand idly by while Siena fans bail, sponsors bail, and the overall program continue to decline? Can you honestly continue to support this coach in good faith knowing what he is doing to the Siena program? I would say fine if you want to keep you options open till end of year- but realistically what if anything in this coach’s 14 year record as head coach makes you think he can turn it around? This is a tough one for me. I am of the belief that with a bit of development (don’t say no one has developed under JP) this team COULD be right up there as a title contender in the MAAC next year. That remains to be seen, but it’s certianly not out of the question. If the only coach you (when I say you I am not singling our 1 person but a fanbase as a whole) will accept is a guy who is going to bring you runs of 20 win seasons year after year and several NCAA Tournaments, then JP needs to go after this year. He probably should have gone after last year in that case. Part of me wants to be in this camp, but I try to be realistic and look at things beyond just basketball. Siena isn’t in a position financially to make that a priority. Being highly competitive in the MAAC (like Siena has been each of the past 2 years) is what the institution is reasonably going to look for, with an NCAA appearance every 5-7 years the expectation. Let’s be real: JP won’t kill the program. He’ll win some MAAC games, make a few runs, make an NCAA Tournament occasionally, go on TV, etc. Firing him and making the wrong hire that brings us to the bottom of the MAAC for 3-5 years kills the program, possibly for good. And at this point, I don’t have much confidence that Dargenio would make a good hire for the program. So to be clear, I’m much more of an advocate of firing/reassigning Darg (I have several complaints with our athletic department, mainly with marketing, promotion, and social media) and then seeing how the chips fall. I’d love to envision having a Baker Dunleavy at the helm of this thing in 4 months, I think he’d absolutely crush it here. I just don’t know that I see it happening. Bit of a tangent here, but I follow the UMass program pretty closely as well. They have a young, energetic AD who has them running all kinds of promotions to get fans to games. He’s active on social media and actually interacts with fans when they have questions about things and tries to help improve things on the fan experience side. He made a slam dunk basketball hire this offseason who is recruiting well and the program is growing again. I’d love to see Siena finding a guy like that to Head their athletics department. That said, I guess I may be coming off the wrong way on some of these posts. I’m not trying to keep JP, nor am I trying to get rid of him. I’m simply playing devil’s advocate and trying to form some realistic expectations for this team, this year. I can’t control that some fans are leaving. I disagree with their decision to do so, and it’s not a move I could make myself. Those also aren’t the fans that an athletic department should be the most focused on, the ones who will leave every time they don’t like the coach, then return once things look bright again. I haven’t seen any sort of number on sponsors leaving, other than the stuff about Trustco and CapCom (which didn’t necessarily have anything to do with how he team is playing). I’m just feeling out whether or not what we have for the next 2 years (the Nico era) and evaluating what I think needs to happen. At this point, JP doesn’t NEED to be fired. That sentiment might literally change if we lose on Sunday. It might change next month, it might not change for 5 years. Now, there would be almost no realistic win total for this team that I would be angry if we fired JP after this season (maybe if we went 11-7 or better in the MAAC, but then I see no realistic way he’s fired). Thanks for reading my little rant everyone. Go Saints. Thoughtful post... I agree D'Arg should be gone. But you can't keep Jimmy thinking a worse coach could come in here. You just can't operate that way. Father Kevin Mullen reportedly was behind the hires of Mitch and Jimmy. He's no longer the president of Siena College. The next hire should be done via committee with only basketball people. That group hired Paul Hewitt and Fran McCaffery. Don't see why Siena couldn't get a Baker Dunleavy type of coach - no they probably aren't going to pay an unknown guy $750K but coaches know if you win big at Siena you'll have a bunch of BCS offers down the line. It's a great job for the right coach who embraces high expectations. After 8 long years if the next guy is great he'll look even better.
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