IndianSaint
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 8,973
Dislikes:
|
Post by IndianSaint on Feb 23, 2020 11:27:23 GMT -5
Jack & Al left due to their coach getting fired. Does anyone have any evidence either would have left if coach not fired? I can’t remember a Star Siena player ever leaving Siena that want due to a coaching change. Burdeen (sp) left not due to coaching change to UMass but was he a star? I’m not saying other MMS won’t be impacted but the character of the players Siena recruits (especially under Carm) I just don’t see any Siena players leaving. Call me naive but I just don’t see it under Carm. Here’s the proof, when a kid has a chance to play at a higher level than Siena, they will do it, that’s all the proof you need.................and they can be great character kids as well.............it’s ok to be naive, just not 24/7............... Name one Siena player who left Siena to play at a higher level that wasn’t due to a coaching change. Also, Siena has had superstars who could have played at a higher level who stayed at Siena for 4 years. So, where is the evidence that all if a sudden all or some of our superstars will leave?
|
|
gorvy
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 10,017
Dislikes:
|
Post by gorvy on Feb 23, 2020 11:34:40 GMT -5
Here’s the proof, when a kid has a chance to play at a higher level than Siena, they will do it, that’s all the proof you need.................and they can be great character kids as well.............it’s ok to be naive, just not 24/7............... Name one Siena player who left Siena to play at a higher level that wasn’t due to a coaching change. Also, Siena has had superstars who could have played at a higher level who stayed at Siena for 4 years. So, where is the evidence that all if a sudden all or some of our superstars will leave? He's never going to admit that he could be wrong. Just narrow minded when it comes to this topic. Frankly selling Siena short in this instance. Yes, somebody could leave... but no one knows the extent of this until it happens. The fact is, like I said, no superstar has ever left Siena without a coaching change.... again that's a fact not an opinion.
|
|
|
Post by greengold4ever on Feb 23, 2020 11:39:52 GMT -5
Name one Siena player who left Siena to play at a higher level that wasn’t due to a coaching change. Also, Siena has had superstars who could have played at a higher level who stayed at Siena for 4 years. So, where is the evidence that all if a sudden all or some of our superstars will leave? He's never going to admit that he could be wrong. Just narrow minded when it comes to this topic. Frankly selling Siena short in this instance. Yes, somebody could leave... but no one knows the extent of this until it happens. The fact is, like I said, no superstar has ever left Siena without a coaching change.... again that's a fact not an opinion. hate to burst your bubble, and I know this is a fact because of who I know in the program over the years...............both McClinton & Fisher were gone before Lanier was toast, their decision was not based upon the coaching............
|
|
IndianSaint
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 8,973
Dislikes:
|
Post by IndianSaint on Feb 23, 2020 12:46:45 GMT -5
He's never going to admit that he could be wrong. Just narrow minded when it comes to this topic. Frankly selling Siena short in this instance. Yes, somebody could leave... but no one knows the extent of this until it happens. The fact is, like I said, no superstar has ever left Siena without a coaching change.... again that's a fact not an opinion. hate to burst your bubble, and I know this is a fact because of who I know in the program over the years...............both McClinton & Fisher were gone before Lanier was toast, their decision was not based upon the coaching............ Then, I’ll counter that those two were a product of that coaching regime/philosophy/culture. Fran has 6-7 guys who all could have played at a higher level but none chose to leave. Why, they were happy here & coach’s culture. Same now with Carm. Mike Deane has at least 5-6 guys who could have okayed higher but didn’t leave. Of course, if a kid feels his coach won’t/can’t help him improve or play professional they’ll leave. Right now, Carm has kids best interest in mind along with team. Kids understand where they sit with him.
|
|
gorvy
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 10,017
Dislikes:
|
Post by gorvy on Feb 23, 2020 14:00:46 GMT -5
He's never going to admit that he could be wrong. Just narrow minded when it comes to this topic. Frankly selling Siena short in this instance. Yes, somebody could leave... but no one knows the extent of this until it happens. The fact is, like I said, no superstar has ever left Siena without a coaching change.... again that's a fact not an opinion. hate to burst your bubble, and I know this is a fact because of who I know in the program over the years...............both McClinton & Fisher were gone before Lanier was toast, their decision was not based upon the coaching............ Ok, lol.
|
|
bigfan
Team Captain
Posts: 1,726
Dislikes:
|
Post by bigfan on Feb 23, 2020 17:03:03 GMT -5
Regardless of how we feel about the awesomeness of being a Siena Saint, if a high major comes calling, kids are going to listen. The current red shirt rule is one of the primary deterrents to making these moves, not just from the athlete's perspective, but from the school the kid is transferring to.
With that gone, I predict things are going to get nuts in a hurry.
|
|
gorvy
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 10,017
Dislikes:
|
Post by gorvy on Feb 23, 2020 17:12:47 GMT -5
Regardless of how we feel about the awesomeness of being a Siena Saint, if a high major comes calling, kids are going to listen. The current red shirt rule is one of the primary deterrents to making these moves, not just from the athlete's perspective, but from the school the kid is transferring to. With that gone, I predict things are going to get nuts in a hurry. That's one way to look at it. IMO you guys are way over estimating the effect on Siena. They will for the most part still be focusing on the blue chip high schoolers rather than pining for the ones they missed the first time around. On the other hand, we may be able to pick up some under utilized players tired of wasting away on the bench. Most athletes will transfer down or laterally, not up. That's my opinion, and for now it's as good as anyone else's until proven otherwise, despite what some In the "know" might say.
|
|
|
Post by MTS on Feb 23, 2020 18:54:03 GMT -5
He's never going to admit that he could be wrong. Just narrow minded when it comes to this topic. Frankly selling Siena short in this instance. Yes, somebody could leave... but no one knows the extent of this until it happens. The fact is, like I said, no superstar has ever left Siena without a coaching change.... again that's a fact not an opinion. hate to burst your bubble, and I know this is a fact because of who I know in the program over the years...............both McClinton & Fisher were gone before Lanier was toast, their decision was not based upon the coaching............ And Siena was still fine... Got Kenny Hasbrouck who won more NCAA games than McClinton and Tay Fisher is the guy who bombed Vandy in the NCAA tournament not Al ;-)
|
|
SaintMisbehavin
Team Captain
Legacy. Alum. Hoops Lover. Hyper-Niche Amateur Blog Runner
Posts: 2,433
Dislikes:
|
Post by SaintMisbehavin on Feb 24, 2020 15:59:49 GMT -5
Fran on the transfer changes...scoot to 23 minutes or so in...shouts out Kenny Hasbrouck as an example.
|
|
|
Post by greengold4ever on Feb 24, 2020 20:08:03 GMT -5
Fran on the transfer changes...scoot to 23 minutes or so in...shouts out Kenny Hasbrouck as an example. of course Fran understands the implications of this potential rule change.............but yet some of you fail to realize what that means for Siena & mid-majors............and I know you as most of us look upon Fran as someone highly regarded in the folklore or our basketball history, and he nailed it right on the head which is the point I was trying to put across but that was pushed aside as being not valid.....................geez folks open your eyes............
|
|
$cott
Assistant Coach
Posts: 5,086
Dislikes:
|
Post by $cott on Feb 25, 2020 10:36:50 GMT -5
Fran on the transfer changes...scoot to 23 minutes or so in...shouts out Kenny Hasbrouck as an example. of course Fran understands the implications of this potential rule change.............but yet some of you fail to realize what that means for Siena & mid-majors............and I know you as most of us look upon Fran as someone highly regarded in the folklore or our basketball history, and he nailed it right on the head which is the point I was trying to put across but that was pushed aside as being not valid.....................geez folks open your eyes............ You said Siena would never keep a talented player, would have to go back to the ARC, and possibly have to drop D1 altogether. That is a huge difference from it could hurt midmajors.
|
|
|
Post by greengold4ever on Feb 25, 2020 10:48:09 GMT -5
of course Fran understands the implications of this potential rule change.............but yet some of you fail to realize what that means for Siena & mid-majors............and I know you as most of us look upon Fran as someone highly regarded in the folklore or our basketball history, and he nailed it right on the head which is the point I was trying to put across but that was pushed aside as being not valid.....................geez folks open your eyes............ You said Siena would never keep a talented player, would have to go back to the ARC, and possibly have to drop D1 altogether. That is a huge difference from it could hurt midmajors. this new rule OPENS the door for losing talented players at the mid-major level, the less chance of keeping them with no sitting out............and the correlation I am making is when that happens you cannot COMPETE against the higher level teams or even have a chance.................so why are we at the D1 level if that were to continually to happen, not saying we should be doing dropping or moving back to ARC, but let's face it raiding schools like Siena of talent will do nothing to build our profile or draw fans, nope........................they might even split into 2 divisions like NCAA football, the haves and the have nots.....................I am as much a Siena "homer" as anyone, but I am not naive enough to think that what we have to offer a student/athlete is more than anyone else, because that is simply not true and foolish to think that way, keeping aside values & "family" atmosphere of the hoop program, are we counting on that in today's world to hold on to kids..........those that tend to set "unreasonable" expectations are going to be sadly disappointed.........and we do have a great school with fantastic things to offer, but sometimes that just ain't good enough, and we have to live with that....................
|
|
$cott
Assistant Coach
Posts: 5,086
Dislikes:
|
Post by $cott on Feb 25, 2020 10:59:16 GMT -5
You said Siena would never keep a talented player, would have to go back to the ARC, and possibly have to drop D1 altogether. That is a huge difference from it could hurt midmajors. this new rule OPENS the door for losing talented players at the mid-major level, the less chance of keeping them with no sitting out............and the correlation I am making is when that happens you cannot COMPETE against the higher level teams or even have a chance.................so why are we at the D1 level if that were to continually to happen, not saying we should be doing dropping or moving back to ARC, but let's face it raiding schools like Siena of talent will do nothing to build our profile or draw fans, nope........................they might even split into 2 divisions like NCAA football, the haves and the have nots.....................I am as much a Siena "homer" as anyone, but I am not naive enough to think that what we have to offer a student/athlete is more than anyone else, because that is simply not true and foolish to think that way, keeping aside values & "family" atmosphere of the hoop program, are we counting on that in today's world to hold on to kids..........those that tend to set "unreasonable" expectations are going to be sadly disappointed.........and we do have a great school with fantastic things to offer, but sometimes that just ain't good enough, and we have to live with that.................... I hate the rule and hope it is never implemented but there is a strong likelihood it will be and while it will hurt Siena for sure it isn't going to be a doomsday scenario. Not every kid wants to transfer, many make friends as freshman and leaving those friends for another school is not an appealing option. Look at Manny Camper, he's stuck here through 3 coaches. I also love that we are competing with the big schools for recruits now. Those that come to Siena when they have better options are the sort that are far more likely to stay. The kids who pick Siena because it is the best offer out there are the ones that are far more likely to jump at the first chance. And then there is the chance to win and make the NCAAs, if Carm can build the winning culture back here then it makes jumping to a Boston College or Georgia Tech where you will never sniff the NCAA Tournament a less appealing move.
|
|
|
Post by MTS on Feb 25, 2020 11:40:49 GMT -5
this new rule OPENS the door for losing talented players at the mid-major level, the less chance of keeping them with no sitting out............and the correlation I am making is when that happens you cannot COMPETE against the higher level teams or even have a chance.................so why are we at the D1 level if that were to continually to happen, not saying we should be doing dropping or moving back to ARC, but let's face it raiding schools like Siena of talent will do nothing to build our profile or draw fans, nope........................they might even split into 2 divisions like NCAA football, the haves and the have nots.....................I am as much a Siena "homer" as anyone, but I am not naive enough to think that what we have to offer a student/athlete is more than anyone else, because that is simply not true and foolish to think that way, keeping aside values & "family" atmosphere of the hoop program, are we counting on that in today's world to hold on to kids..........those that tend to set "unreasonable" expectations are going to be sadly disappointed.........and we do have a great school with fantastic things to offer, but sometimes that just ain't good enough, and we have to live with that.................... I hate the rule and hope it is never implemented but there is a strong likelihood it will be and while it will hurt Siena for sure it isn't going to be a doomsday scenario. Not every kid wants to transfer, many make friends as freshman and leaving those friends for another school is not an appealing option. Look at Manny Camper, he's stuck here through 3 coaches. I also love that we are competing with the big schools for recruits now. Those that come to Siena when they have better options are the sort that are far more likely to stay. The kids who pick Siena because it is the best offer out there are the ones that are far more likely to jump at the first chance. And then there is the chance to win and make the NCAAs, if Carm can build the winning culture back here then it makes jumping to a Boston College or Georgia Tech where you will never sniff the NCAA Tournament a less appealing move. I know kids have egos and all think they can start on the biggest stage but there are also many stars who want to be the star and have a "legacy" than to be just another guy at a high-major program. Look at Kenny Hasbrouck, Edwin Ubiles, Ronald Moore, Ryan Rossiter etc at Siena they're stars - Kenny has his jersey in the rafters. Ronald Moore will never have to buy a dinner in Albany. If you go to a HM the likelihood of you being anything but a footnote is pretty high and honestly could just as much HURT your pro prospects as help it. Don't get me wrong I agree with $cott I don't like the rule but the more I think about it might not be as badly as it first sounded. We will lose some good people but that's still a risk now - will just be a little higher. And I don't the "Papi plan" that says D1 will split like football will happen. That would kill the NCAA tournament which makes millions and millions of dollars. Mid-majors take the first weekend. Football is totally different where is is only a four team playoff (not even a real tournament). Besides what do you do with the Big East and Gonzaga? Fran got it right some kids will think they can leave Siena to start at Duke and they really can't. I guess they'll learn the hard way. Bottom line I want people who want to be here anyway.
|
|
|
Post by saintsfan12 on Feb 25, 2020 16:45:24 GMT -5
Sad to say, fans of programs always think recruits will choose being the star at a lower program over bit player at a major but I just don't think that is the case. Granted I know no kid envisions being recruited over but there must be infinite Burns-type players who barely saw game action at a major program when they could have been studs at a MM.
Though I will agree that splitting D1 basketball would be the worst thing to ever happen to it. NCAA simply needs to stop allowing teams to move to D1. I was always in the 'never expand the tournament' camp but the more programs they allow the more reasonable that idea becomes
|
|