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Post by sienafan1480 on Jun 3, 2022 8:57:30 GMT -5
Has anyone seen both Coyle and Tice play in person? I just watched video on both and 95% of Coyle’s highlights are him just hitting spot up 3 pointers. Whereas Tice’s show him playing D, handling the ball, driving to the basket and hitting jumpers (spot up and off the dribble). From what I’ve seen I’m not sure I would put to much stock in the ratings that showed Coyle rated higher. To me Coyle looks like a smaller Sloan Seymour, who can only do 1 thing (granted he does it very well) but I’m sure he will at least try to play D and rebound. Would love to hear from anyone that actually has seen them play in person. Meeeeeee!!! I've been quiet on this. All I'll say is Coyle is here and Tice isnt so there's not much point in debating this now. And I agree with your assertation of the NERR ratings. They dont mean much. Agreed 100%. I have nothing against Coyle, and actually like the deal a lot. But if you don’t understand that the NERR ratings have a ton of subjectivity and bias in them, then it is not really worth debating. I remember going back and forth with them in 2016, about Elijah Hughes who played for me before transferring to South Kent. Elijah spent two years at South Kent and wasn’t even in their rankings, despite playing very well. When they found out he was committed to ECU he mysteriously jumped from not ranked to #16 in the class. I understand generally the MAAC tries to find a sweet spot in the high teens to mid 50s of those rankings in terms of getting players, but please understand those rankings are subjective at best. Coyle can shoot the crap out of the ball and that is such a valuable skill, but if it came down to it I would certainly have taken Tice. He has the ability to not just be an All MAAC player but also a defensive player of the year type. I know we all look to rankings, but at the end of the day let’s say they are subjective at best. HJ sorry I tagged your post, but definitely agree with you.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on Jun 3, 2022 11:25:36 GMT -5
I think the one thing we can probably all agree on is if even the most optimistic of fans are hanging their hopes on walk-ons then it really spotlights the questionable recruits coming in. I really hope Carm knows what he is doing this offseason. We need more than just Eley out of this group.
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Post by billmurray on Jun 3, 2022 15:01:32 GMT -5
Will the international recruits be on campus for the summer workouts or will they stay in Europe to play for their National teams in the FIBA tournaments?
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Jun 3, 2022 16:23:30 GMT -5
Well then forget about Tice. What’s your projection for Coyle’s role and production at this level? I like Coyle. He's got great size and can really shoot the 3. I think he can help us right away in that aspect. His athleticism scares me. I dont think he has the ceiling Tice does, but he'll get stronger as he gets older and Im hoping can turn into a "good" rebounder. He's a stretch 4 at our level. Dont think he puts it on the floor good enough to be a true SF. I like that he's from Colonie, and has grown up around Siena basketball his while life. Im sure he had other opportunities to "walk on," but he took our 3 year deal. I think he'll contribute enough that Carm wont regret the deal. A poor mans Bisping in his soph year would be a nice goal. Lets hope playing at home in front of family and friends turns him into one of those RARE 4 year players @ Siena. Playing at home in front of family and friends didn't turn King into one of those RARE 4 year players @ Siena, so I personally wouldn't rely on that being a factor. King became a star and bounced as soon as he was marketable. Why, I'm not sure - it's not like he upgraded in program or location. I really don't understand where these kids' heads are at these days with the constant moving around. I made lasting friendships at Siena that still persist to this day. I never would have dreamed of abandoning that. But athletes don't appear to make those connections anymore. I imagine if Fran McCaffery's teams existed today, they never would have stayed together long enough for their great multi-year run. Coyle (and anyone else) simply needs to be happy where he's at overall and then he'll stay. Stormo is on record stating he "couldn't be happier" at Siena, and he's backed that up. I've never worried he would bounce as a result, and there he still is.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Jun 3, 2022 16:36:16 GMT -5
Meeeeeee!!! I've been quiet on this. All I'll say is Coyle is here and Tice isnt so there's not much point in debating this now. And I agree with your assertation of the NERR ratings. They dont mean much. Agreed 100%. I have nothing against Coyle, and actually like the deal a lot. But if you don’t understand that the NERR ratings have a ton of subjectivity and bias in them, then it is not really worth debating. I remember going back and forth with them in 2016, about Elijah Hughes who played for me before transferring to South Kent. Elijah spent two years at South Kent and wasn’t even in their rankings, despite playing very well. When they found out he was committed to ECU he mysteriously jumped from not ranked to #16 in the class. I understand generally the MAAC tries to find a sweet spot in the high teens to mid 50s of those rankings in terms of getting players, but please understand those rankings are subjective at best. Coyle can shoot the crap out of the ball and that is such a valuable skill, but if it came down to it I would certainly have taken Tice. He has the ability to not just be an All MAAC player but also a defensive player of the year type. I know we all look to rankings, but at the end of the day let’s say they are subjective at best. HJ sorry I tagged your post, but definitely agree with you. I don't disagree with your sentiment. I defer to your judgment because you're a coach and have forgotten more about this topic than I'll ever know. Perhaps Tice is in reality better than Coyle. My point was mostly that Coyle wouldn't be ranked where he is on their list if he wasn't a D1 player. Some here think that being a walk-on means he's not. At the very least, people are going love his 3 point shooting, but it's not all he can do. He's not going to be the next coming of Sloan Seymour. He's less athletic than Tice, which likely limits him to playing a stretch 4 role, whereas Tice could play the 3 or 4. I'm okay with that. They've already got Owens and others at the 3. I like HJ's projection of a poor man's Brett Bisping. I'll gladly sign for that outcome right now.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Jun 3, 2022 17:22:29 GMT -5
I like Coyle. He's got great size and can really shoot the 3. I think he can help us right away in that aspect. His athleticism scares me. I dont think he has the ceiling Tice does, but he'll get stronger as he gets older and Im hoping can turn into a "good" rebounder. He's a stretch 4 at our level. Dont think he puts it on the floor good enough to be a true SF. I like that he's from Colonie, and has grown up around Siena basketball his while life. Im sure he had other opportunities to "walk on," but he took our 3 year deal. I think he'll contribute enough that Carm wont regret the deal. A poor mans Bisping in his soph year would be a nice goal. Lets hope playing at home in front of family and friends turns him into one of those RARE 4 year players @ Siena. Playing at home in front of family and friends didn't turn King into one of those RARE 4 year players @ Siena, so I personally wouldn't rely on that being a factor. King became a star and bounced as soon as he was marketable. Why, I'm not sure - it's not like he upgraded in program or location. I really don't understand where these kids' heads are at these days with the constant moving around. I made lasting friendships at Siena that still persist to this day. I never would have dreamed of abandoning that. But athletes don't appear to make those connections anymore. I imagine if Fran McCaffery's teams existed today, they never would have stayed together long enough for their great multi-year run. Coyle (and anyone else) simply needs to be happy where he's at overall and then he'll stay. Stormo is on record stating he "couldn't be happier" at Siena, and he's backed that up. I've never worried he would bounce as a result, and there he still is. Kings life, and decisions are his own. Doenst have anything to do with Coyle. Remember King went from CBA to Siena and never left the area. Even though it was known he wanted to get out of town. His minimal recruiting interest wasnt producing scholarship offers from any D-1 programs. The only real scholarship he had going into the summer was from St. Rose, where he verballed, and ended up rescinding. Whispers had him not liking Carm, losing a good friend to a murder in Florida and Covid in general probably combined to make King end up somewhere he probably had no real interest in. Remember, Coyle has been away from home for at least a year (I think he was at Cushing for 2 years, but Im not positive), and due to a Covid driven, 5th year, no sit rule, he faced a lack of offers like a lot of HS/prep players. We def got a steal for '22-'23, and he'll show everyone that he's worth a scholarship in '23'24.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Jun 3, 2022 17:46:58 GMT -5
The easy take is that guys who were at all productive on the EYBL circuit tend to be D1-caliber dudes. Coyle fits that description. He’s big and makes shots. Unless he sucks at literally everything else, he’ll probably be a functional D1 player for us.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on Jun 4, 2022 11:08:34 GMT -5
The easy take is that guys who were at all productive on the EYBL circuit tend to be D1-caliber dudes. Coyle fits that description. He’s big and makes shots. Unless he sucks at literally everything else, he’ll probably be a functional D1 player for us. Right, and generally a functional D1 player is what you are hoping for with the walk on as a freshman deals. That so many are already ready to anoint him our second best freshman coming in is a little scary. Especially since it could wind up true.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Jun 4, 2022 13:39:23 GMT -5
The easy take is that guys who were at all productive on the EYBL circuit tend to be D1-caliber dudes. Coyle fits that description. He’s big and makes shots. Unless he sucks at literally everything else, he’ll probably be a functional D1 player for us. Being big, making shots, and sucking at literally everything else is what Sloan Seymour was. Coyle is not that - at least not from the footage I've seen - as well as what he did on the EYBL circuit. Some here think he's not a D1 player merely because of his walk-on status. But that's merely Carm taking advantage of the times. Under normal circumstances Coyle is a 4 year scholarship player with multiple offers. He in fact did have 2 other D1 offers last year. Lots of capable players have been under recruited due to covid and the new transfer rules.
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Jun 16, 2022 13:09:08 GMT -5
Jerome Beta to Tennessee Tech
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Jun 16, 2022 13:25:11 GMT -5
Jerome Beta to Tennessee Tech We couldn’t compete with Tenn Tech for this kid?
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Post by goldsaint17 on Jun 16, 2022 13:45:03 GMT -5
Jerome Beta to Tennessee Tech We couldn’t compete with Tenn Tech for this kid? The fact that the kid stayed unsigned until June 15 and wound up at a low OVC program should tell you what you need to know… Time will tell whether that was a dodged bullet or a missed opportunity.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Jun 16, 2022 14:00:35 GMT -5
We couldn’t compete with Tenn Tech for this kid? The fact that the kid stayed unsigned until June 15 and wound up at a low OVC program should tell you what you need to know… Time will tell whether that was a dodged bullet or a missed opportunity. Don’t know in his vids he looks raw but he looks to have a lot of athleticism and rim protecting ability. I’d much rather would have taken a swing with him on our roster. Lord knows this entire recruiting class with the exception of a few looks like we a rolled the dice. He would have been one I would have liked to see if we could have developed. I think he’s another victim of the portal & held out too long for higher offers, when it was all said & done there with was no room at the inn😉.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Jun 16, 2022 14:31:53 GMT -5
The fact that the kid stayed unsigned until June 15 and wound up at a low OVC program should tell you what you need to know… Time will tell whether that was a dodged bullet or a missed opportunity. Don’t know in his vids he looks raw but he looks to have a lot of athleticism and rim protecting ability. I’d much rather would have taken a swing with him on our roster. Lord knows this entire recruiting class with the exception of a few looks like we a rolled the dice. He would have been one I would have liked to see if we could have developed. I think he’s another victim of the portal & held out too long for higher offers, when it was all said & done there with was no room at the inn😉. Guys do slip through the cracks. But also: He played on one of the five best HS teams in America, for a coach who can call pretty much any D1 program and get his phone call answered. He has gotten offers at different times from schools at every level of Division 1 — including a WCC offer the same day we offered back in January. Those offers seemingly vanished. He played AAU this spring on one of the three major circuits, at a time when virtually everyone needed bigs and few were available. Yet he didn’t earn any new offers and eventually surfaces at one of the worst programs in D1. Maybe everyone is missing out! And maybe it would have been worth taking the flier on him. But if we missed out, we’re far from the only ones. It’s not like this kid is an unknown.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Jun 16, 2022 21:09:02 GMT -5
Don’t know in his vids he looks raw but he looks to have a lot of athleticism and rim protecting ability. I’d much rather would have taken a swing with him on our roster. Lord knows this entire recruiting class with the exception of a few looks like we a rolled the dice. He would have been one I would have liked to see if we could have developed. I think he’s another victim of the portal & held out too long for higher offers, when it was all said & done there with was no room at the inn😉. Guys do slip through the cracks. But also: He played on one of the five best HS teams in America, for a coach who can call pretty much any D1 program and get his phone call answered. He has gotten offers at different times from schools at every level of Division 1 — including a WCC offer the same day we offered back in January. Those offers seemingly vanished. He played AAU this spring on one of the three major circuits, at a time when virtually everyone needed bigs and few were available. Yet he didn’t earn any new offers and eventually surfaces at one of the worst programs in D1. Maybe everyone is missing out! And maybe it would have been worth taking the flier on him. But if we missed out, we’re far from the only ones. It’s not like this kid is an unknown. Beta is an example of why Carm soured on the portal. He'll probably be in and out of there after one season because he clearly thought he could do better. I like the guy they got as the backup 5. We wanted size - well, he's huge. Assuming he's healthy after 2 years away from the game, he's shown he can provide what is needed in his collegiate experience so far.
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