musicman
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Post by musicman on Mar 24, 2016 23:08:54 GMT -5
Keep in mind even Mike Deane never won the MAAC tourney...or even got to the finals. Even though it has been 6 years for the fans, it has only been 3 years with JP. We can't hold Mitch against him. If anything he's done a reasonable job getting us back on our feet. Sure Fran did it faster but as long as we keep moving forward I'm happy. Next year we just need to catch a break and not have any critical people go down. Be honest...if Fran lost Ronald for 10 games during any of his 3 stellar years - especially in late Jan/February - we wouldn't be talking about how great he was. I do have concerns about the unbalanced classes and losing Quis/Bisping/JO all at once but that's a year and a half out. Hopefully it is a problem Jimmy can rectify on his way to a first round NCAA win :-) Glen lets back the bus up a bit huh, Mike was almost a 690/750 coach at Siena holding victories over such programs as Pitt Stanford Georgia Tech Kansas St. He recruited some very good players remember Brown and Bennerman Walker Etc.... He did get the Marquette job based on his accomplishments at Siena did he not? Also, I don't play the what if game because you could also say what if Fran had stayed. With Basabe OD Poole Jackson RyRo etc .. and whoever else he would have brought in, we were in pretty good shape to dominate the MAAC for who knows how long. Hell we might even have been in the A10 by now and might have been the next Butler or Xavier. See how the what if game works! Look JPs got a lot to prove. He's had a decent year 1, disastrous year 2 and good year 3. His recruiting to date at Siena has been a mixed bag with some real head scratchers and 2 great players in Wright and Nico. Jury's out on him, he's a 500 MAAC coach with a bunch of footnotes and qualifiers. I said it numerous times, next year big things are expected with a senior dominated team and 3 new guys in Smithen Joseph and Richard. Under perform and the natives will get restless, a lot of pressure next year. Even more pressure to replace the 3 or 4 guys who will be gone the following year. Here's the key, this time around Patsos has the ability to sell a bunch of quality playing time to recruits, kids want to play. There's no reason to under recruit under those circumstances. Patsos has the opportunity to sell some good players if done right. Who he brings in will probably dictate if he will be successful. Bring in the right guys and win he's set, he's golden, he's the man but recruit badly and stay 500 he and Siena are in big trouble. Simple as that ..... Not trying to bash Patsos, right now he's done an ok job but he still has a lot prove. He needs to show he can be more than a 500 guy at Siena. No matter which side of the fence you lean toward, I think it would be hard for a true Siena fan to argue the position you just stated. Very well said and quite fair. I believe 90% of real Siena fans (long invested) would not take issue with anything in your statement. It's a good overview of the last three years.
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glen
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Post by glen on Mar 25, 2016 7:01:58 GMT -5
OI - not arguing your points. They're valid. I'm just pointing out that every stat can be argued. Sure, Mike Deane was "great" in very measurable terms but there are equally measurable terms in which he wasn't. I'm not sold on Jimmy but I'm also not a hater. I thought he was a reasonable pick. He probably brought in too many kids from Loyola his first year, but live and learn. I agree 100% on the future recruiting. I think I said that the year after next would be the test for JP. Losing Wright/Bisping/JO/Long will be huge. A) He better make hay next year and B) like you said, he better have some guys in the wings. My concern is that 3 of the 4 are bigs. Bigs at our level take time to develop. All the best recent bigs (JO, RyRo, Bisping) all took until their Soph year before they really contributed. That means Fisher and WB better be coming along next year or we will see a considerable drop off the following year.
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SIENA1971
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Post by SIENA1971 on Mar 25, 2016 7:16:28 GMT -5
OI - not arguing your points. They're valid. I'm just pointing out that every stat can be argued. Sure, Mike Deane was "great" in very measurable terms but there are equally measurable terms in which he wasn't. I'm not sold on Jimmy but I'm also not a hater. I thought he was a reasonable pick. He probably brought in too many kids from Loyola his first year, but live and learn. I agree 100% on the future recruiting. I think I said that the year after next would be the test for JP. Losing Wright/Bisping/JO/Long will be huge. A) He better make hay next year and B) like you said, he better have some guys in the wings. My concern is that 3 of the 4 are bigs. Bigs at our level take time to develop. All the best recent bigs (JO, RyRo, Bisping) all took until their Soph year before they really contributed. That means Fisher and WB better be coming along next year or we will see a considerable drop off the following year. Think Joe Garagiola (R.I.P.) quote below can be applied to our collective memories of Siena basketball & coaches “Each year I don’t play, I get better,” Mr. Garagiola wrote in “Baseball Is a Funny Game.” “The first year on the banquet trail I was a former ballplayer, the second year I was great, the third year one of baseball’s stars, and just last year I was introduced as one of baseball’s immortals. The older I get the more I realize that the worst break I had was playing.”
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Mar 25, 2016 8:55:58 GMT -5
Glen lets back the bus up a bit huh, Mike was almost a 690/750 coach at Siena holding victories over such programs as Pitt Stanford Georgia Tech Kansas St. He recruited some very good players remember Brown and Bennerman Walker Etc.... He did get the Marquette job based on his accomplishments at Siena did he not? Also, I don't play the what if game because you could also say what if Fran had stayed. With Basabe OD Poole Jackson RyRo etc .. and whoever else he would have brought in, we were in pretty good shape to dominate the MAAC for who knows how long. Hell we might even have been in the A10 by now and might have been the next Butler or Xavier. See how the what if game works! Look JPs got a lot to prove. He's had a decent year 1, disastrous year 2 and good year 3. His recruiting to date at Siena has been a mixed bag with some real head scratchers and 2 great players in Wright and Nico. Jury's out on him, he's a 500 MAAC coach with a bunch of footnotes and qualifiers. I said it numerous times, next year big things are expected with a senior dominated team and 3 new guys in Smithen Joseph and Richard. Under perform and the natives will get restless, a lot of pressure next year. Even more pressure to replace the 3 or 4 guys who will be gone the following year. Here's the key, this time around Patsos has the ability to sell a bunch of quality playing time to recruits, kids want to play. There's no reason to under recruit under those circumstances. Patsos has the opportunity to sell some good players if done right. Who he brings in will probably dictate if he will be successful. Bring in the right guys and win he's set, he's golden, he's the man but recruit badly and stay 500 he and Siena are in big trouble. Simple as that ..... Not trying to bash Patsos, right now he's done an ok job but he still has a lot prove. He needs to show he can be more than a 500 guy at Siena. No matter which side of the fence you lean toward, I think it would be hard for a true Siena fan to argue the position you just stated. Very well said and quite fair. I believe 90% of real Siena fans (long invested) would not take issue with anything in your statement. It's a good overview of the last three years. Thanks MM, astute observation, that's usually my intent although sometimes I probably get a bit carried away, I've been along time fan and have been attending games for over 30 years. I really only want the best for the program.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 25, 2016 9:00:39 GMT -5
I don't know, I think being on the fence at this point is a cop out. By now, most people can be able to form an opinion. You have 12 years of Maac data to evaluate. Either you like him, or you don't. If you don't mind being around the middle of the pack most years and maybe winning a title once a decade or so, he's your guy. And hey, he's certainly better than Mitch and Rob. Sure, your opinion can change if the circumstances change, but at this point what you see is most likely what you are going to get. Basically a .500 coach--- never really too low, but not dominating either, certainly not one who has shown an ability to move up to the next level. Now those who can't stand criticism will question my fandom, (while openly suggesting some players should leave and some assistants should be fired lol,) but at least I'm not afraid to express my opinion. What's disappointing most to me is that after the season we had and with only one year left to the down cycle the fans couldn't even get up for a post season tourney game. I was there in row a center court, where was everybody else? That speaks to character, and it wasn't a good look for the program as a whole.
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glen
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Post by glen on Mar 25, 2016 9:51:24 GMT -5
I was there too. It was depressingly empty in the TUC. That said, we didn't belong post-season. I'm sorry but we played ~30 games. If you want to argue another one can't hurt then fine but we didn't earn post-season. Playing in a 3rd rate tourney doesn't get anyone (including the players) jazzed. It was worthwhile after Mitch, coming off 3 years in the desert...everyone needed something...anything. At this point Jimmy has us headed in the right direction so when we earn a real post-season people will be excited.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 11:04:03 GMT -5
My reaction to the crowd was we should have scheduled it in the ARC! Almost to a person, those that I see regularly at my Y and who have season tickets said they had no interest in going and they didn't! No one complained about the cost, they complained about the practice of having to buy the game - our first CBI payout was not that well advertised and it was unique to this fan base - not so anymore.
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melva
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Post by melva on Mar 25, 2016 11:04:53 GMT -5
I do not how many people were around for the measles games with no fans BEFORE Siena entered the MAAC. (1989). Measles epidemic clears up a lot sooner than the mediocre epidemic. Go Saints
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melva
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Post by melva on Mar 25, 2016 11:11:37 GMT -5
The crowd really makes Siena basketball special.
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Post by billmurray on Mar 25, 2016 11:22:01 GMT -5
I don't know, I think being on the fence at this point is a cop out. By now, most people can be able to form an opinion. You have 12 years of Maac data to evaluate. Either you like him, or you don't. If you don't mind being around the middle of the pack most years and maybe winning a title once a decade or so, he's your guy. And hey, he's certainly better than Mitch and Rob. Sure, your opinion can change if the circumstances change, but at this point what you see is most likely what you are going to get. Basically a .500 coach--- never really too low, but not dominating either, certainly not one who has shown an ability to move up to the next level. Now those who can't stand criticism will question my fandom, (while openly suggesting some players should leave and some assistants should be fired lol,) but at least I'm not afraid to express my opinion. What's disappointing most to me is that after the season we had and with only one year left to the down cycle the fans couldn't even get up for a post season tourney game. I was there in row a center court, where was everybody else? That speaks to character, and it wasn't a good look for the program as a whole. I get your point, but I'm only focusing on the record at Siena. Winning at Loyola is a losing proposition. Two 20 win seasons and one bad year that was a result of injuries for the most part. Winning 20+ this year with the injury to Wright is a very good year. That is the reason for being optimistic at this point. This is not a finished product, next year on the court and on the recruiting trail will tell a lot.
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Post by MTS on Mar 25, 2016 11:31:09 GMT -5
I don't know, I think being on the fence at this point is a cop out. By now, most people can be able to form an opinion. You have 12 years of Maac data to evaluate. Either you like him, or you don't. If you don't mind being around the middle of the pack most years and maybe winning a title once a decade or so, he's your guy. And hey, he's certainly better than Mitch and Rob. Sure, your opinion can change if the circumstances change, but at this point what you see is most likely what you are going to get. Basically a .500 coach--- never really too low, but not dominating either, certainly not one who has shown an ability to move up to the next level. Now those who can't stand criticism will question my fandom, (while openly suggesting some players should leave and some assistants should be fired lol,) but at least I'm not afraid to express my opinion. What's disappointing most to me is that after the season we had and with only one year left to the down cycle the fans couldn't even get up for a post season tourney game. I was there in row a center court, where was everybody else? That speaks to character, and it wasn't a good look for the program as a whole. I get your point, but I'm only focusing on the record at Siena. Winning at Loyola is a losing proposition. Two 20 win seasons and one bad year that was a result of injuries for the most part. Winning 20+ this year with the injury to Wright is a very good year. That is the reason for being optimistic at this point. This is not a finished product, next year on the court and on the recruiting trail will tell a lot. Exactly. The Loyola record was mediocre but as it has been well documented nobody wins there. Fran basically had the same record at UNCG/Lehigh. Now it is fair to say JP has been a .500 coach at Siena and as the great Bill Parcells once said "you are what your record says you are" however Siena did about as well as you could have hoped in year one (even before the CBI title) year two was an unmitigated disaster some bad decisions, some bad luck. This past year was very solid. Obviously the ending was a big disappointment we all wanted to win the MAAC tournament and go to the big dance. But anytime you win 21 games, finish 3rd and were basically a top 100 team (with some nice wins) you had a good year especially with everyone coming back. Next year I've already laid out my expectations - NCAA or NIT - meaning either a regular season or tournament championship. Hopefully we can win both we certainly will have the talent to do so. This is the year Jimmy has been pointing to for a while now.
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Mar 25, 2016 12:29:17 GMT -5
Keep in mind even Mike Deane never won the MAAC tourney...or even got to the finals. Even though it has been 6 years for the fans, it has only been 3 years with JP. We can't hold Mitch against him. If anything he's done a reasonable job getting us back on our feet. Sure Fran did it faster but as long as we keep moving forward I'm happy. Next year we just need to catch a break and not have any critical people go down. Be honest...if Fran lost Ronald for 10 games during any of his 3 stellar years - especially in late Jan/February - we wouldn't be talking about how great he was. I do have concerns about the unbalanced classes and losing Quis/Bisping/JO all at once but that's a year and a half out. Hopefully it is a problem Jimmy can rectify on his way to a first round NCAA win :-) Glen lets back the bus up a bit huh, Mike was almost a 690/750 coach at Siena holding victories over such programs as Pitt Stanford Georgia Tech Kansas St. He recruited some very good players remember Brown and Bennerman Walker Etc.... He did get the Marquette job based on his accomplishments at Siena did he not? Also, I don't play the what if game because you could also say what if Fran had stayed. With Basabe OD Poole Jackson RyRo etc .. and whoever else he would have brought in, we were in pretty good shape to dominate the MAAC for who knows how long. Hell we might even have been in the A10 by now and might have been the next Butler or Xavier. See how the what if game works! Look JPs got a lot to prove. He's had a decent year 1, disastrous year 2 and good year 3. His recruiting to date at Siena has been a mixed bag with some real head scratchers and 2 great players in Wright and Nico. Jury's out on him, he's a 500 MAAC coach with a bunch of footnotes and qualifiers. I said it numerous times, next year big things are expected with a senior dominated team and 3 new guys in Smithen Joseph and Richard. Under perform and the natives will get restless, a lot of pressure next year. Even more pressure to replace the 3 or 4 guys who will be gone the following year. Here's the key, this time around Patsos has the ability to sell a bunch of quality playing time to recruits, kids want to play. There's no reason to under recruit under those circumstances. Patsos has the opportunity to sell some good players if done right. Who he brings in will probably dictate if he will be successful. Bring in the right guys and win he's set, he's golden, he's the man but recruit badly and stay 500 he and Siena are in big trouble. Simple as that ..... Not trying to bash Patsos, right now he's done an ok job but he still has a lot prove. He needs to show he can be more than a 500 guy at Siena. JP has minimal pressure. just signed an extension through 2021 right? his job (or at least in the short term) is secure regardless of what happens next year or the year after.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 25, 2016 12:47:22 GMT -5
The reason why I was high on Fran was he took two different teams from scratch to the ncaas. And both times he did it within three years. Patsos only had the one title in 18 tries (reg and tourney), so it is not the same thing. He's going to be here for at least 5 more years-- if you want him to succeed you should have attended the tourney games. The revenue from the games could have funded trips to Europe which helps with recruiting. The gauntlet has been thrown down, nit ncaa or bust. That's a tough position to put any coach in, let alone a middling one like patsos.
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 25, 2016 13:56:08 GMT -5
Gorvy maybe just maybe many of the fans are starting to settle the expectations down to a bit of reality. I think its a plethora of reasons ... people are disappointed, people are beginning to judge Patsos as mediocre, they are finding other things to do/spend their money on, tired of the way the program is run and so on. I think there are plenty of reasons that support dwindled. Siena alumnus need to remember that the vast majority of fan support comes from non-alumnus and that without performance there will be a financial judgement day. Without a quality product on the floor, the casual fans will find something better to do.
People need to remember... that along with Gorvy mentioning Fran's basketball coaching resume... when you got a chance to speak to him you knew immediately that this man was professional and carried himself with the confidence, discipline and drive to be the best. When i spoke with Mitch I felt like i was at a used car lot or any moment he would ask me if I wanted synthetic or conventional with my oil change. When I speak with Patsos I see a genuinely nice guy who means well and is fun to be around. With all of them I think of it like I have to envision who I want my son's future hitched to. The decision is actually a pretty easy one.
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 25, 2016 14:09:52 GMT -5
I get your point, but I'm only focusing on the record at Siena. Winning at Loyola is a losing proposition. Two 20 win seasons and one bad year that was a result of injuries for the most part. Winning 20+ this year with the injury to Wright is a very good year. That is the reason for being optimistic at this point. This is not a finished product, next year on the court and on the recruiting trail will tell a lot. Exactly. The Loyola record was mediocre but as it has been well documented nobody wins there. Fran basically had the same record at UNCG/Lehigh. Now it is fair to say JP has been a .500 coach at Siena and as the great Bill Parcells once said "you are what your record says you are" however Siena did about as well as you could have hoped in year one (even before the CBI title) year two was an unmitigated disaster some bad decisions, some bad luck. This past year was very solid. Obviously the ending was a big disappointment we all wanted to win the MAAC tournament and go to the big dance. But anytime you win 21 games, finish 3rd and were basically a top 100 team (with some nice wins) you had a good year especially with everyone coming back. Next year I've already laid out my expectations - NCAA or NIT - meaning either a regular season or tournament championship. Hopefully we can win both we certainly will have the talent to do so. This is the year Jimmy has been pointing to for a while now. while youre talking about the records of each year here at Siena ... let us remember the SOS for each of those years. 163 215 166 and one of those 20 win seasons took nearly 40 games to win the 20. Running totals Overall 52-51 Home 32-18 Away 18-28 Neutral 2-5 Conference 31-29
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