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Post by billmurray on Mar 19, 2016 20:09:24 GMT -5
You opinion, my opinion, only time will tell which is correct. I'm betting you are wrong, but I'll wait and see. If I'm right I'll be happy, and you will be miserable with Siena winning and Patsos coaching. Sad, but true.
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Post by MTS on Mar 19, 2016 20:16:43 GMT -5
I believe quackman (nolasaint) called it right when Siena hired Jimmy. He had reservations not because he didn't think he was a good coach but because Jimmy was a polarizing figure. Most people loved Fran and most people knew Mitch was a terrible coach but Jimmy is pretty much right down the middle.
I do get a kick out of the pitchforks coming out now. Most people said before the season that Siena needed to be top 3 and win 20 games. That happened and it doesn't appear that was enough for some people. Of course I wanted to go to the NCAA tournament this year but expectations were met. Not to mention our best player got injured and really never came back to his all-conference form.
I do believe it is a self fulfilling prophecy with some people who's minds are already made up.
For the record I've already laid out of my expectations for 2016-17 with a senior dominated team - regular season and/or conference tournament championship. Anything is a disappointment IMO.
It will come down to talent with Jimmy as it is with 99% of D1 coaches. He gets the players he'll win.
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Mar 19, 2016 20:25:10 GMT -5
For the record I've already laid out of my expectations for 2016-17 with a senior dominated team - regular season and/or conference tournament championship. Anything is a disappointment IMO. So is that the 5 year plan? To compete for the league championship once every 5 years? Umm, no thanks. If JP does lead the team to win the league next year and he and his staff get very good 4 & 5 players for 2017 then I'll be ready to say he is deserving of several hundred thousand dollars a year. Until then I guess you can say I am an Missourian - show me.
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Post by billmurray on Mar 19, 2016 20:25:35 GMT -5
I believe quackman (nolasaint) called it right when Siena hired Jimmy. He had reservations not because he didn't think he was a good coach but because Jimmy was a polarizing figure. Most people loved Fran and most people knew Mitch was a terrible coach but Jimmy is pretty much right down the middle. I do get a kick out of the pitchforks coming out now. Most people said before the season that Siena needed to be top 3 and win 20 games. That happened and it doesn't appear that was enough for some people. Of course I wanted to go to the NCAA tournament this year but expectations were met. Not to mention our best player got injured and really never came back to his all-conference form. I do believe it is a self fulfilling prophecy with some people who's minds are already made up. For the record I've already laid out of my expectations for 2016-17 with a senior dominated team - regular season and/or conference tournament championship. Anything is a disappointment IMO. It will come down to talent with Jimmy as it is with 99% of D1 coaches. He gets the players he'll win. Cogent analysis, expectations met this year, but projecting disaster going forward because of a preexisting opinion/bias about the coach's ability.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 20:33:33 GMT -5
For all of you "happy with 20" guys, you could save a lot of money by just buying any national paper and looking at the W's and L's and counting to 20 to quell your need for Siena hoop. For those of us that actually care about the Program and go to as many games as possible, the 20 number is indeed a first order indicator but when you watch the season play out and realize this coach can't go the extra mile it is not, in and of itself, a flag waving "aren't we great again"! Fran and several previous coaches set the bar fairly high (especially for a MAAC level conference), eMBee (hope this survives the autocorrect nonsense) lowered it back to the Beyer/Lanier levels and it was a major drop off from what we had gotten comfortable with under the God of the Church of the Latter Day Fran Fans, and then (cue the music) along comes James! He raised the bar back to .5000001 hoop (gotta protect his job) while doing things that previous coaches didn't have to OR WANT do at Siena. We had good recruiters, good kids and most got developed and graduated. Now we are employing the techniques some of the almost big boys use (things we used to bitch about when other teams did them) and with no real impact. Good to hear that MTS has laid out his expectations for 2016-17 - I am certain they are emblazoned on the walls of Jimmy and John's offices - woe be to the Siena Program if Mr. MTS's expectations are not met - he'll likely get back on the scheduling trail again.
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Post by billmurray on Mar 19, 2016 20:36:02 GMT -5
For the record I've already laid out of my expectations for 2016-17 with a senior dominated team - regular season and/or conference tournament championship. Anything is a disappointment IMO. So is that the 5 year plan? To compete for the league championship once every 5 years? Umm, no thanks. If JP does lead the team to win the league next year and he and his staff get very good 4 & 5 players for 2017 then I'll be ready to say he is deserving of several hundred thousand dollars a year. Until then I guess you can say I am an Missourian - show me. Next year and the year after will tell. I have no problem with the wait and see approach, but it is the belief that all is lost after a 20+ win season based on a preexisting bias that I just don't understand.
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Post by MTS on Mar 19, 2016 20:44:14 GMT -5
For the record I've already laid out of my expectations for 2016-17 with a senior dominated team - regular season and/or conference tournament championship. Anything is a disappointment IMO. So is that the 5 year plan? To compete for the league championship once every 5 years? Umm, no thanks. If JP does lead the team to win the league next year and he and his staff get very good 4 & 5 players for 2017 then I'll be ready to say he is deserving of several hundred thousand dollars a year. Until then I guess you can say I am an Missourian - show me. I never said anything about a contract extension. JP has three years left on his deal. I have no problem with waiting to see how he reloads after the four seniors graduate next year. Siena should COMPETE for the MAAC title every year. I believe we finally did that this past season despite coming up short. I hate to sound like a Patsos apologize but he took over a far worse disaster than Hewitt or McCaffery did. At least Beyer and Lanier had left talent in place. Yes JP got JO and Brett but does he get no credit for developing them into good players?
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Post by billmurray on Mar 19, 2016 20:47:17 GMT -5
So is that the 5 year plan? To compete for the league championship once every 5 years? Umm, no thanks. If JP does lead the team to win the league next year and he and his staff get very good 4 & 5 players for 2017 then I'll be ready to say he is deserving of several hundred thousand dollars a year. Until then I guess you can say I am an Missourian - show me. I never said anything about a contract extension. JP has three years left on his deal. I have no problem with waiting to see how he reloads after the four seniors graduate next year. Siena should COMPETE for the MAAC title every year. I believe we finally did that this past season despite coming up short. I hate to sound like a Patsos apologize but he took over a far worse disaster than Hewitt or McCaffery did. At least Beyer and Lanier had left talent in place. Yes JP got JO and Brett but does he get no credit for developing them into good players? Or you can believe that they got better despite the coach. It seems it is easy to do if you really try.
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Mar 19, 2016 20:52:56 GMT -5
I have been stating right along, with what the great J Granny touted, Siena with its academics, fan base, venue should never , well almost never be out recruited by regional mid majors. Ok, many here said I am crazy, admit never grew up, but, Siena has to much going for itself not to have a perennial top rated program.
Now one of the liabilities is loosing coaches, ok but go out and get the best. IMO the search was over far to quickly after the dismissal of MB. JP nice guy, 500 coach, I agree with some of his decisions bit not all. But who else was in the race.
Said before, and got neat up for it, Siena needs to change the methodology, and the committee when choosing a new candidate for coach. In todays world change is inevitable, and candidly change is needed in the continuing development of the program. In the same vein, for those who aren't satisfied with JP, and all here at one time or another have been, we're all fans, lets not blame JP but the group who hired him. Can't blame the man for taking the offer.
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Post by MTS on Mar 19, 2016 21:12:38 GMT -5
I have been stating right along, with what the great J Granny touted, Siena with its academics, fan base, venue should never , well almost never be out recruited by regional mid majors. Ok, many here said I am crazy, admit never grew up, but, Siena has to much going for itself not to have a perennial top rated program. Now one of the liabilities is loosing coaches, ok but go out and get the best. IMO the search was over far to quickly after the dismissal of MB. JP nice guy, 500 coach, I agree with some of his decisions bit not all. But who else was in the race. Said before, and got neat up for it, Siena needs to change the methodology, and the committee when choosing a new candidate for coach. In todays world change is inevitable, and candidly change is needed in the continuing development of the program. In the same vein, for those who aren't satisfied with JP, and all here at one time or another have been, we're all fans, lets not blame JP but the group who hired him. Can't blame the man for taking the offer. Andy Toole and Mike Rhoades. Rhoades is 24-40 in two years at Rice and Toole is 52-51 (ironically same record as JP) the past three years.
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th24
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Post by th24 on Mar 20, 2016 5:17:44 GMT -5
Again- the program was in shambles with dipshit Mitch! It takes time to rebuild a program! Jimmy has done that! Next years team will win the MAAC!
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Post by Tony on Mar 20, 2016 5:46:57 GMT -5
I really see both sides of coin here. On one hand we don’t want a career 500 coach- and to be honest that’s what Jimmy has been up to this point. 500 coaches don’t go 15-15 every year – they seldom stink, they get a good class and ride them to decent year or two- get a new contract and then when that class graduates, a .500 coach lowers expectations and goes into “rebuild mode”. Also have to remember that pretty much described Fran before he got to Siena. Fran upped his game (and his recruiting) and the rest is history. Jimmy has had 2 out of 3 good years. He has made a few recruiting “blunders’ - right now Jimmy is on schedule. The book is still out on how this will turn out- I urge people to have some patience,( this coming from guy who was ready to ditch Mitch after his 1st year) I personally hope Siena does not extend Jimmy till after 2017/18 season when we see how he does after big 4 graduate. Until then I’ll keep an open mind on Jimmy, he is far from perfect, but he has done enough good things. He inherited a terrible situation, a program that was in shambles, we are now highly competitive- can he take next step? Can he balance recruiting to not go into tank after losing senior class next year? Jimmy is very close – I’m not ready to say he is man – but I’m not ready to say he isn’t either; in short his body of work is incomplete. I get Jimmy is very polarizing coach, but he has shown ability to improve and adapt. The more Jimmy “gets’ Siena is not Loyola – that he has to schedule better, recruit better and we have much higher expectations- the better off Jimmy will be- but way too soon to be writing him off
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Post by Tony on Mar 20, 2016 7:01:50 GMT -5
One other thing I should add- for the "we have too many transfers" crowd—College basketball has changed over last decade- transfers are now rampant throughout D1 basketball. Like it hate it- whatever, but that’s the way things go these days. And before you say that’s not the way Fran used to “do it” perhaps you should rethink that line of thought- either that or tell me about Levi Osby, Kojo Mensah, Joao Braga,Erik Harris,James Carr, Chris De La Rosa, Denzel Yard and BTW most of those transfers occurred in Fran’s 1st 3 years when he was trying to stabilize the roster. So you lose credibility when you complain about transfers and then invoke Saint Fran’s name
Personally I think that was a strength of Fran- if he made a recruiting mistake he corrected it ( see Braga,Carr, Osby)
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SIENA1971
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Post by SIENA1971 on Mar 20, 2016 7:35:49 GMT -5
Put me in the hate it (transfers) crowd . . . my gut feeling is they have negative impact on mid-majors . . . but with all the "upsets" this week I'd wish one of our stats guys would analyze which teams benefitted the most by transfer players . . . results may turn me around
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Mar 20, 2016 7:43:10 GMT -5
One other thing I should add- for the "we have too many transfers" crowd—College basketball has changed over last decade- transfers are now rampant throughout D1 basketball. Like it hate it- whatever, but that’s the way things go these days. And before you say that’s not the way Fran used to “do it” perhaps you should rethink that line of thought- either that or tell me about Levi Osby, Kojo Mensah, Joao Braga,Erik Harris,James Carr, Chris De La Rosa, Denzel Yard and BTW most of those transfers occurred in Fran’s 1st 3 years when he was trying to stabilize the roster. So you lose credibility when you complain about transfers and then invoke Saint Fran’s name Personally I think that was a strength of Fran- if he made a recruiting mistake he corrected it ( see Braga,Carr, Osby) Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Many do not like change, uncomfortable with it. In todays world you either change or get left behind. With the no transfer, or just about none it probably has hurt Siena's competitiveness. For the record I do not approve of just any transfer but Siena can still pock and choose, sort of get off their pedestal.
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