nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Feb 6, 2014 6:17:10 GMT -5
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Post by SaintsFan on Feb 6, 2014 7:48:15 GMT -5
First. I don't want more government. It is simply a necessary evil. Humans have proven time and time and time again that when left to police themselves... they will pillage one another. Your problem is that you believe everyone is like you... or should be like you. The simple reality is that although you may have some moral compass steering your actions many others have little to no morals with profit and greed dictating that whatever they can get away with is the boundary.
How many times have we heard... well there was no law against it. Which implies that if it isn't written down and specifically stated... well then it must be ok
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Feb 6, 2014 9:50:03 GMT -5
First. I don't want more government. It is simply a necessary evil. Humans have proven time and time and time again that when left to police themselves... they will pillage one another. Your problem is that you believe everyone is like you... or should be like you. The simple reality is that although you may have some moral compass steering your actions many others have little to no morals with profit and greed dictating that whatever they can get away with is the boundary. How many times have we heard... well there was no law against it. Which implies that if it isn't written down and specifically stated... well then it must be ok 'governments' have committed way more evil over the course of human history than any individual ever could...
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th24
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Post by th24 on Feb 12, 2014 15:49:48 GMT -5
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Feb 12, 2014 20:53:26 GMT -5
First. I don't want more government. It is simply a necessary evil. Humans have proven time and time and time again that when left to police themselves... they will pillage one another. Your problem is that you believe everyone is like you... or should be like you. The simple reality is that although you may have some moral compass steering your actions many others have little to no morals with profit and greed dictating that whatever they can get away with is the boundary. How many times have we heard... well there was no law against it. Which implies that if it isn't written down and specifically stated... well then it must be ok Most people are good and moral. And the reality is that it is good business to be moral and good. The honest and competent businessman gets return customers which allows his business to grow. So the free market system in a sense polices itself. When governent gets involved in business is where the problems are created because the free market model isn't used. So it is less about what the people want and need and more about what the government and politicians desire. You are worried about abusive corporations? I would be worried about our president who acts like dictator by using the irs against his enemies and censors the media via his bully pulpit. The fact that you and mp don't see this confirms you are just party surrogates deplete of any objectivity.
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Feb 13, 2014 5:15:05 GMT -5
Nice video, at least K. Powers is honest now. Where were all these folks before. The republicans got it right on O care, they just didn't use the right approach to persuade the sensitive libs.
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th24
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Post by th24 on Feb 13, 2014 12:32:22 GMT -5
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glen
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Post by glen on Feb 13, 2014 15:04:45 GMT -5
CellarRat - on OCare the Repubs were literally locked out of the discussion. There was no persuading to be done. The Dems had filibuster proof majorities in both chambers of Congress and the Prez. They had no reason to negotiate given the press was propagating the mantra that the Repubs had no ideas of their own (BS).
This is why it is critical that Obama not be able to unilaterally "fix" OCare from the executive branch. The brilliance (maybe accidental) of our founding fathers' system is that even though it got rammed through, there's still an opportunity to fix it now that there's been turnover in Congress. The Dems are all for Obama making changes unilaterally (illegally) because they don't have to get caught in some really uncomfortable votes - not that they don't have those super majorities. They don't want to negotiate in good faith. They want to dictate.
My take- they had their chance and blew it big time. All the net negatives that conservatives said would happen are. Now they need to come back to the table to fix this turd.
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th24
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Post by th24 on Feb 13, 2014 17:01:28 GMT -5
You want the republicans to help Obamacare ?! Never going to happen! The Dems to can live with the consequences in the 2014 elections.
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th24
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Post by th24 on Feb 13, 2014 17:05:22 GMT -5
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Feb 13, 2014 18:42:35 GMT -5
Glen you are right about the numbers in congress, but I was referring to public opinion, we didn't have that either.
Hopefully we can get a majority in the senate in 2014, a new conservative president in 2016, and Siena in the A10 sometime during that period as well.
I'm afraid we're probably stuck with O care. The .09% tax will probably go to 2 to 3 percent. Payroll tax will increase, and I'm sure they will continue to raise social security tax cap above 116k to pay for it. Most people will vote for this or approve it, because they think it doesn't affect them. Class warfare at its best. This president and the Democratic Party are pros at demagoguing to maintain support from their base. God bless America, at least what is left of it!
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glen
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Post by glen on Feb 14, 2014 8:50:06 GMT -5
CR - public opinion has never been in the positive for OCare. Heck, the TEA party sprang up in large part due to OCare. Even with the press flogging this beast it is still under water in polling.
The left was adept at confusing "health care" with "health insurance". Nobody is sent away from an ER if they are in serious shape - insurance or not. Yes, not everyone had insurance but everyone had access to care. The "insurance" push was to provide preventative health care. Unfortunately, studies have also shown that most preventative care doesn't actually reduce costs either. Oregon (a bastion of conservatism) did a study on medicare and preventative treatments. It turns out costs are actually higher. This whole thing was a boondoggle from the get-go.
Back to your point...the 2010 elections - massive turnover in the House - was a direct result of OCare. Few want this. The few that do are of the mind that "something/anything" needed to be done. The rest didn't want this. We have public opinion on our side. What we don't have are competent politicians. Give the Dems credit - they have their act together. They speak in a unified voice and have a plan. Repubs/TEAs have none of that.
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th24
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Post by th24 on Feb 14, 2014 13:02:14 GMT -5
Public opinion has never been in the positive for OCare?! Have fun believing that! lol There is about 15 democratic senate seats that are now in trouble because of OCare! And now one of senators want to be seen with the president while they were campaigning!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2014 13:18:01 GMT -5
. The left was adept at confusing "health care" with "health insurance". Nobody is sent away from an ER if they are in serious shape - insurance or not. Yes, not everyone had insurance but everyone had access to care. The "insurance" push was to provide preventative health care. Unfortunately, studies have also shown that most preventative care doesn't actually reduce costs either. Oregon (a bastion of conservatism) did a study on medicare and preventative treatments. It turns out costs are actually higher. This whole thing was a boondoggle from the get-go. . Reading that paragraph helps explain your views. Views I don't agree with and views that I think are myopic at best. No one said people are sent away from ER's - the ER costs that are not recovered from the patient are in fact one of the issues that drive up medical cost - those costs go into the cost of doing business at a hospital and are translated into higher and higher insurance rates for the rest of us that have that insurance. As to access to "care" - the only access that someone without health insurance has is through the ER. The first question a new patient is asked is "What insurance do you have?" If the answer is none they won't take you. Preventative care is costly - any cost greater than $0 can be seen as "costly". Proving it is cost effective is like trying to prove a negative. If insurance companies offer coverage for preventative care then they must strongly believe it is well worth it. Much cheaper to cover breast cancer that is found early via mammography than the cost of treating a breast cancer that is well established and spreading. Your choice of Oregon could be seen to imply the conservative majority (a bastion of conservatives - your words) is healthier - could that be due to other factors, e.g., access to health care via their health insurance and early treatment of any and all conditions - they don't have to wait until an illness or physical problem gets "serious" (again, your word) to go to the ER). People with health insurance tend to see their doctors for annual physicals and when needed, allowing the doctor the luxury of tracking health related issues that may in some cases be related and masking an underlying cause. That won't happen in an ER visit for a "serious" cold, infection, etc. ER's don't track patient histories as doctor's do. This point seems to get conveniently missed by those on the right - Medicare IS a government run health program and it has tons of popular support. The Affordable Health Care Act is NOT a government run health program. It is a set of laws to guarantee access to health insurance. The fact that many people, primarily young people, are reluctant to get health insurance due to their belief they don't need it forced the addition of provisions making it mandatory to have health insurance. What you pick is up to you. The cost to the taxpayers comes from subsidies to help the poor afford minimal coverage. The law also sets minimum standards for the policies TO PROTECT THE INSURED. All we hear is repeal Obamacare with no replacement identified. They want to return to the previous insurance company driven unregulated costly status quo. Yet when asked specifics about doing away with the various provisions of the ACA, the right always says they like that part but not the rest so let's repeal the whole thing. Let's just agree to disagree.
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Feb 14, 2014 17:45:30 GMT -5
MP you are exhausting me. Nothing gets through that head of yours. Don't say people like something that they had NO choice joining. The money is confiscated through payroll tax. It is not voluntary. Stop with the sillyness. That kind of talk is fine with the typical ignorant democratic voter that doesn't know better, but not here. Unfortunately, many people share your views.
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