indian82
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Post by indian82 on May 7, 2018 7:03:21 GMT -5
You're absolutely right. There is NO guarantee. But the optimism is hopeful. At least Coach Christian appears to have a system that does not consist of holding the ball until the last several seconds and then jack up a shot. Just looking forward to see what he can do with our guys and who he will bring in. Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. So you're saying his offense waits till the last several seconds to shoot? |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 7:28:13 GMT -5
Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. So you're saying his offense waits till the last several seconds to shoot? They took 253 more threes than Siena did last year with close to the same FGA per game yet 4 less TO per game. They played the same amount of games so, you tell me. It seems to me that 3 main guys just gunned threes at the end of possessions. They all attempted over 180 threes. One guy Nico’d it up and took 266. |
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on May 7, 2018 7:33:14 GMT -5
So you're saying his offense waits till the last several seconds to shoot? They took 253 more threes than Siena did last year with close to the same FGA per game yet 4 less TO per game. They played the same amount of games so, you tell me. It seems to me that 3 main guys just gunned threes at the end of possessions. They all attempted over 180 threes. One guy Nico’d it up and took 266. Thanks. That's something I would like to look into further. |
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on May 7, 2018 7:37:30 GMT -5
You're absolutely right. There is NO guarantee. But the optimism is hopeful. At least Coach Christian appears to have a system that does not consist of holding the ball until the last several seconds and then jack up a shot. Just looking forward to see what he can do with our guys and who he will bring in. Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. That's a bit of a misrepresentation. It's not like they are shooting 70% of the their shots from 3. They shot about 53% of their shots from 2. Further, they shot 37% from 3 for the year and 41% from 3 in conference. Unless they were awfully lucky, that is not jacking up shots as the shot clock winds down. They got to the line 17 times per game and scored 74 per game. I was as much a defender of JP as anyone, but the 3 point shot was not a huge part of his desired offense and many were taken as the shot clock was counting down. The new coaches style is to run offense to get open 3 point looks, there is nothing wrong with that. (Papi should be happy) My point was that every coach is looking to get the right recipe for his team. His team will create some turnovers/easy scoring opportunities, shoot some 3's and use pace/intensity to wear down opponents. Just because they are frenetic on defense does not mean the offense has to be equally as "havocy" on offense. 10 turnovers a game is nothing to sneeze about, nor is 7 steals and 4 blocks per game. And, no there is no guarantees. But there is absolutely room for optimism. |
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SIENA1971
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Post by SIENA1971 on May 7, 2018 7:42:55 GMT -5
What we do know is that each season JC had a different team on the bench ... based on “stats” looks like he made adjustments accordingly ... think they call it coaching
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on May 7, 2018 7:43:26 GMT -5
They took 253 more threes than Siena did last year with close to the same FGA per game yet 4 less TO per game. They played the same amount of games so, you tell me. It seems to me that 3 main guys just gunned threes at the end of possessions. They all attempted over 180 threes. One guy Nico’d it up and took 266. Thanks. That's something I would like to look into further. And those 3 guys shot 34%, 38% and 40% respectively. They went basically 6 deep (with 2 other guys getting around 10 minutes per game) so it kind of makes sense that 3 guys shot the majority of their 3's. Of the 8, 2 of them took no 3 point shots and another took .6 per game. And the coach is not hiding anything, his offense revolves around forcing turnovers (easy baskets) and shooting 3's. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 7:54:58 GMT -5
Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. That's a bit of a misrepresentation. It's not like they are shooting 70% of the their shots from 3. They shot about 53% of their shots from 2. Further, they shot 37% from 3 for the year and 41% from 3 in conference. Unless they were awfully lucky, that is not jacking up shots as the shot clock winds down. They got to the line 17 times per game and scored 74 per game. I was as much a defender of JP as anyone, but the 3 point shot was not a huge part of his desired offense and many were taken as the shot clock was counting down. The new coaches style is to run offense to get open 3 point looks, there is nothing wrong with that. (Papi(the troll)(the troll)(the troll)(the troll) should be happy) My point was that every coach is looking to get the right recipe for his team. His team will create some turnovers/easy scoring opportunities, shoot some 3's and use pace/intensity to wear down opponents. Just because they are frenetic on defense does not mean the offense has to be equally as "havocy" on offense. 10 turnovers a game is nothing to sneeze about, nor is 7 steals and 4 blocks per game. And, no there is no guarantees. But there is absolutely room for optimism. Only 7 teams in the nation shot more 3's as a % of offense and only 26 teams the nation had a slower tempo. If MSM wasn't taking a lot of last second threes, then what team on earth was? We can be optimistic and I will be optimistic as well. I like the guy's energy and turnover margin. But let's just not call weaknesses strengths and vise versa... His teams shoot threes and likely quite often in end of shotclock situations as I82 was afraid of. The end. I don't care where or when or how fast the offense comes as long as it's efficient. |
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on May 7, 2018 8:15:59 GMT -5
That's a bit of a misrepresentation. It's not like they are shooting 70% of the their shots from 3. They shot about 53% of their shots from 2. Further, they shot 37% from 3 for the year and 41% from 3 in conference. Unless they were awfully lucky, that is not jacking up shots as the shot clock winds down. They got to the line 17 times per game and scored 74 per game. I was as much a defender of JP as anyone, but the 3 point shot was not a huge part of his desired offense and many were taken as the shot clock was counting down. The new coaches style is to run offense to get open 3 point looks, there is nothing wrong with that. (Papi(the troll)(the troll)(the troll)(the troll) should be happy) My point was that every coach is looking to get the right recipe for his team. His team will create some turnovers/easy scoring opportunities, shoot some 3's and use pace/intensity to wear down opponents. Just because they are frenetic on defense does not mean the offense has to be equally as "havocy" on offense. 10 turnovers a game is nothing to sneeze about, nor is 7 steals and 4 blocks per game. And, no there is no guarantees. But there is absolutely room for optimism. Only 7 teams in the nation shot more 3's as a % of offense and only 26 teams the nation had a slower tempo. If MSM wasn't taking a lot of last second threes, then what team on earth was? We can be optimistic and I will be optimistic as well. I like the guy's energy and turnover margin. But let's just not call weaknesses strengths and vise versa... His teams shoot threes and likely quite often in end of shotclock situations as I82 was afraid of. The end. There is a difference between jacking 3's and working your offense to get good looks (no matter how far into the shot clock it takes.) If you are getting good looks, then patience is a very good thing ... it actually plays into the Havoc theme when teams have to play defense for long stretches of time. I don't see the issue. Team plays slow on offense but scored at a pretty good clip and didn't turn the ball over. What's not to like. Actually, if you want a comparison of a team that plays somewhat similar yet sees success, see Davidson. Davidson shoots a little bit better and takes about 2 shots more per game but the Mount was much better on the defensive stats. Bet that if you could do the mounts conference only stats, they would look even more like Davidson's) Neither team gets to the line much nor do they rebound. Neither team fouls very much(which is surprising considering the Havoc defense.) www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2018-school-stats.html |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 8:49:55 GMT -5
Only 7 teams in the nation shot more 3's as a % of offense and only 26 teams the nation had a slower tempo. If MSM wasn't taking a lot of last second threes, then what team on earth was? We can be optimistic and I will be optimistic as well. I like the guy's energy and turnover margin. But let's just not call weaknesses strengths and vise versa... His teams shoot threes and likely quite often in end of shotclock situations as I82 was afraid of. The end. There is a difference between jacking 3's and working your offense to get good looks (no matter how far into the shot clock it takes.) If you are getting good looks, then patience is a very good thing ... it actually plays into the Havoc theme when teams have to play defense for long stretches of time. I don't see the issue. Team plays slow on offense but scored at a pretty good clip and didn't turn the ball over. What's not to like. Actually, if you want a comparison of a team that plays somewhat similar yet sees success, see Davidson. Davidson shoots a little bit better and takes about 2 shots more per game but the Mount was much better on the defensive stats. Bet that if you could do the mounts conference only stats, they would look even more like Davidson's) Neither team gets to the line much nor do they rebound. Neither team fouls very much(which is surprising considering the Havoc defense.) www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2018-school-stats.htmlYou win. |
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on May 7, 2018 9:01:42 GMT -5
There is a difference between jacking 3's and working your offense to get good looks (no matter how far into the shot clock it takes.) If you are getting good looks, then patience is a very good thing ... it actually plays into the Havoc theme when teams have to play defense for long stretches of time. I don't see the issue. Team plays slow on offense but scored at a pretty good clip and didn't turn the ball over. What's not to like. Actually, if you want a comparison of a team that plays somewhat similar yet sees success, see Davidson. Davidson shoots a little bit better and takes about 2 shots more per game but the Mount was much better on the defensive stats. Bet that if you could do the mounts conference only stats, they would look even more like Davidson's) Neither team gets to the line much nor do they rebound. Neither team fouls very much(which is surprising considering the Havoc defense.) www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2018-school-stats.htmlYou win. Cool, I'm all about winning. |
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 7, 2018 9:32:14 GMT -5
You're absolutely right. There is NO guarantee. But the optimism is hopeful. At least Coach Christian appears to have a system that does not consist of holding the ball until the last several seconds and then jack up a shot. Just looking forward to see what he can do with our guys and who he will bring in. Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. MSM's tempo last year was an outlier. He usually plays faster than that. They had an unusually short bench so JC did what good coaches do - he made adjustments to suit the current situation. He somehow got 18 wins out of of that group. I'm hoping he can pull off a similar miracle with what he inherited from Patsos. It's true his teams haven't rebounded like Patsos teams have. But they haven't given the ball away nearly as much either. Sometimes that'll balance each other out in terms of net possessions each game. As an aside I find it interesting that in the the year he won the regular season and tourney championship at the Mount they finished just 20-16. All those guarantee games are a killer. But his home is record was gaudy good. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 11:17:35 GMT -5
Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. MSM's tempo last year was an outlier. He usually plays faster than that. They had an unusually short bench so JC did what good coaches do - he made adjustments to suit the current situation. He somehow got 18 wins out of of that group. I'm hoping he can pull off a similar miracle with what he inherited from Patsos. It's true his teams haven't rebounded like Patsos teams have. But they haven't given the ball away nearly as much either. Sometimes that'll balance each other out in terms of net possessions each game. As an aside I find it interesting that in the the year he won the regular season and tourney championship at the Mount they finished just 20-16. All those guarantee games are a killer. But his home is record was gaudy good. I'm ok with trading rebound margin for a better turnover margin (less committed, more forced) to an extent..especially if they foul less while doing it. That could be a net plus. That's what teams like Iona do. My concerns are simple: poor Points Per Shot on offense and poor 2 pt defense...in combination with the rebounding issues. Iona gets away with relatively poor rebounding and 2 pt defense because of their ridiculously high PPS every year....plus their assist ratio is always near tops of the nation. Jamion still has a ways to go in both areas. Points per Shot:Timmy at Iona = 1.33 average (8 years) Jimmy at Siena = 1.26 average (5 years) Jamion at MSM = 1.23 average (6 years) Last I checked we still need to get thru Iona to win a title. How will we ever expect to beat them trying to play their style only being worse at it? Guys like Becker and Brown would have been a difference in style and bring a better version of that tough approach that Jimmy failed to play. That's Iona's kryptonite. Albany beat both Iona and Canisius last year. This is my concern. We're trying to play a similar style to these guys with a coach whose offenses have typically been quite inferior in comparison. And the fact that MSM sucked at rebounding in the NEC in spite of carrying 8 forwards is a red flag for me. I have much hopes for this guy's young energy and enthusiasm. I'm just cautiously optimistic. |
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Post by greengold4ever on May 7, 2018 11:31:02 GMT -5
Ummm...JCs tempo was slower than us last year...and he took way more threes than us. That’s kind of exactly what his offense has been. They don’t take 2s or get to the line...hence why I’ve said he needs to improve on offense. He’s more of a perimeter D type coach to date. MSM's tempo last year was an outlier. He usually plays faster than that. They had an unusually short bench so JC did what good coaches do - he made adjustments to suit the current situation. He somehow got 18 wins out of of that group. I'm hoping he can pull off a similar miracle with what he inherited from Patsos. It's true his teams haven't rebounded like Patsos teams have. But they haven't given the ball away nearly as much either. Sometimes that'll balance each other out in terms of net possessions each game. As an aside I find it interesting that in the the year he won the regular season and tourney championship at the Mount they finished just 20-16. All those guarantee games are a killer. But his home is record was gaudy good. exactly, as I went back to watch a portion of 3 games from this past season for MSM and to my surprise they were ZERO last second shot clock heaves (boy, that was refreshing in itself)...........most shots were in the flow and more specifically to get the ball up the floor to a quick open look..............in many ways, this is not unsimilar to what Hewitt did when he was here, and if the results are close to what he accomplished, then we really have something here....................so far, all positives, so let's see what else develops with the roster and how JC can integrate the talent to the system.........Rome wasn't built in a day, but the materials are being gathered to at least start a foundation & pave the road down the way................. |
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on May 7, 2018 11:47:33 GMT -5
So you're saying his offense waits till the last several seconds to shoot? They took 253 more threes than Siena did last year with close to the same FGA per game yet 4 less TO per game. They played the same amount of games so, you tell me. It seems to me that 3 main guys just gunned threes at the end of possessions. They all attempted over 180 threes. One guy Nico’d it up and took 266. After a little research, I came across Offensive Efficiency. It looks like a pretty complicated calculation so it appears to have a little more to it than just Pace or PPS. It came from Dean Oliver. Sort based on ORtg. You will see MSM ranked 116 - pretty high (their PACE was 291). In perspective on Offensive Rating: Villanova – 1 Duke – 3 Gonzaga - 4 Albany 59 Iona 86 Canisius 91 Siena 318. I think that is telling. Also take a look at True Shooting % (TS%). MSM was 52. I would like to look at these stats more, but I like it so far. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2018-advanced-school-stats.html |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 11:50:11 GMT -5
They took 253 more threes than Siena did last year with close to the same FGA per game yet 4 less TO per game. They played the same amount of games so, you tell me. It seems to me that 3 main guys just gunned threes at the end of possessions. They all attempted over 180 threes. One guy Nico’d it up and took 266. After a little research, I came across Offensive Efficiency. It looks like a pretty complicated calculation so it appears to have a little more to it than just Pace or PPS. It came from Dean Oliver. Sort based on ORtg. You will see MSM ranked 116 - pretty high (their PACE was 291). In perspective on Offensive Rating: Villanova – 1 Duke – 3 Gonzaga - 4 Albany 59 Iona 86 Canisius 91 Siena 318. I think that is telling. Also take a look at True Shooting % (TS%). MSM was 52. I would like to look at these stats more, but I like it so far. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2018-advanced-school-stats.htmlKeep in mind that last year was MSM's highest PPS year in his tenor...1.31..so it was way above his average of 1.23. Even Jimmy put up 1.33 the year Wright got injured. |
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