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Post by MTS on Aug 2, 2019 9:06:08 GMT -5
Carm is going for the jugular. Why do you think he's been trying to get guys like Webster and Dunn? Those are starter quality players when he's already got Pickett/Carey. He's not exactly resting on his laurels. But when you're competing late against other very good schools for good players it gets harder and harder to land them - especially when you already have good players at their position. So you have to prepare yourself for "no" more often than "yes" and sometimes take no one rather than settle when recruiting at a high level. Otherwise you find yourself with a Patsos-type bench. I love the recruitment of Dunn, yes. However, 2 scholarships are open in August. You just said yourself, 'prepare for the NO'. The staff seems to have chosen to go after 2020 for the volume and 2019 selectively. That's a choice...and it may work out for the staff..especially if Dunn commits on top of it. However, they probably should have had a few more guys on the burner so that we only had 1 ship left at this point. I get why. And I don't really blame Carm too much but still Siena remains a bit thin depth wise and that's not 'going for the jugular'. This is more tip toeing around it and going for it in 2020. There was only one ship open as of 7/19 until a kid (who was getting his lunch handed to him apparently) decided to take his ball and go home. Like Sienafan said we're shooting high - we were right there for Webster and now trying to land Dunn. I don't know who else we should be after. Harris was an important addition. So far I like the competition we're going up against. You're going to lose more than you win when recruiting at a high level. I'll take that over recruiting like a low-major.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Aug 2, 2019 9:13:01 GMT -5
Carm is going for the jugular. Why do you think he's been trying to get guys like Webster and Dunn? Those are starter quality players when he's already got Pickett/Carey. He's not exactly resting on his laurels. But when you're competing late against other very good schools for good players it gets harder and harder to land them - especially when you already have good players at their position. So you have to prepare yourself for "no" more often than "yes" and sometimes take no one rather than settle when recruiting at a high level. Otherwise you find yourself with a Patsos-type bench. I love the recruitment of Dunn, yes. However, 2 scholarships are open in August. You just said yourself, 'prepare for the NO'. The staff seems to have chosen to go after 2020 for the volume and 2019 selectively. That's a choice...and it may work out for the staff..especially if Dunn commits on top of it. However, they probably should have had a few more guys on the burner so that we only had 1 ship left at this point. I get why. And I don't really blame Carm too much but still Siena remains a bit thin depth wise and that's not 'going for the jugular'. This is more tip toeing around it and going for it in 2020. If we had filled our last scholarship to try to get a little help, then we couldn't have pursued Dunn. Then someone left because we pursued Dunn. Don’t really get the criticism here. With Sloan, the only spot we could have pursued was a guard since no minutes were available anywhere else. We tried for Webster, he chose the beach. Instead grabbed a kid who’d pay his own way. Why throw a spot away, especially when next year you only have 2 seniors. I get wanting to push and go all in (I was the first on this board to say it). But I think saying “why do we have 2 scholarships open” is a dumb take when we were actively recruiting for the last spot and then Sloan left in mid-July. Do you want the scraps just for an extra body? Now if Dunn doesn’t come, it will be interesting to see what we do. But having one spot open into the season is generally a smart move unless you need that 13th guy. Last year we got Burns. More and more guys leave midseason every year. Hell, Villanova never fills all 13 scholarships. It’s a thing Jay Wright does.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 9:21:27 GMT -5
I love the recruitment of Dunn, yes. However, 2 scholarships are open in August. You just said yourself, 'prepare for the NO'. The staff seems to have chosen to go after 2020 for the volume and 2019 selectively. That's a choice...and it may work out for the staff..especially if Dunn commits on top of it. However, they probably should have had a few more guys on the burner so that we only had 1 ship left at this point. I get why. And I don't really blame Carm too much but still Siena remains a bit thin depth wise and that's not 'going for the jugular'. This is more tip toeing around it and going for it in 2020. If we had filled our last scholarship to try to get a little help, then we couldn't have pursued Dunn. Then someone left because we pursued Dunn. Don’t really get the criticism here. With Sloan, the only spot we could have pursued was a guard since no minutes were available anywhere else. We tried for Webster, he chose the beach. Instead grabbed a kid who’d pay his own way. Why throw a spot away, especially when next year you only have 2 seniors. I get wanting to push and go all in (I was the first on this board to say it). But I think saying “why do we have 2 scholarships open” is a dumb take when we were actively recruiting for the last spot and then Sloan left in mid-July. Do you want the scraps just for an extra body? Now if Dunn doesn’t come, it will be interesting to see what we do. But having one spot open into the season is generally a smart move unless you need that 13th guy. Last year we got Burns. More and more guys leave midseason every year. Hell, Villanova never fills all 13 scholarships. It’s a thing Jay Wright does. Remember, we also took Hein right off the bat. They settled a little already before they even really got started. Really they should have been recruiting harder for 2019 all along in my opinion. So forgiving not having that other all around difference maker before Seymour left really is not a good argument. They made the choice to take Hein right away as well. In my head, we're whiffing on 3 scholarships in addition to the one on Darwiche. 4 scholarships is a 3rd of the spots. I like Harris. That was great...though completely unproven. And I even really like King as a preferred walk on. However, otherwise....this recruiting period hasn't yielded a lot of fruit yet. Dunn would change that but it seems like the last chance as we're not hearing of anyone else. But again, all eyes are on 2020. Land an Aidan Carpenter-like guy and another all around contributor and keep everyone else and we're back on track...just maybe a year later than what could have been.
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Post by MTS on Aug 2, 2019 9:32:46 GMT -5
If we had filled our last scholarship to try to get a little help, then we couldn't have pursued Dunn. Then someone left because we pursued Dunn. Don’t really get the criticism here. With Sloan, the only spot we could have pursued was a guard since no minutes were available anywhere else. We tried for Webster, he chose the beach. Instead grabbed a kid who’d pay his own way. Why throw a spot away, especially when next year you only have 2 seniors. I get wanting to push and go all in (I was the first on this board to say it). But I think saying “why do we have 2 scholarships open” is a dumb take when we were actively recruiting for the last spot and then Sloan left in mid-July. Do you want the scraps just for an extra body? Now if Dunn doesn’t come, it will be interesting to see what we do. But having one spot open into the season is generally a smart move unless you need that 13th guy. Last year we got Burns. More and more guys leave midseason every year. Hell, Villanova never fills all 13 scholarships. It’s a thing Jay Wright does. Remember, we also took Hein right off the bat. They settled a little already before they even really got started. Really they should have been recruiting harder for 2019 all along in my opinion. So forgiving not having that other all around difference maker before Seymour left really is not a good argument. They made the choice to take Hein right away as well. In my head, we're whiffing on 3 scholarships in addition to the one on Darwiche. 4 scholarships is a 3rd of the spots. I like Harris. That was great...though completely unproven. And I even really like King as a preferred walk on. However, otherwise....this recruiting period hasn't yielded a lot of fruit yet. Dunn would change that but it seems like the last chance as we're not hearing of anyone else. You’re not going to have 13 studs or even that many rotation guys. I don’t know what you want. If you want to say Carm has been very selective with his use of scholarships I agree. I don’t think think that’s a bad thing. Unlike 16 who would hand them out like candy for fringe D1 guys so recruiting would be done for the year.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 9:50:06 GMT -5
Remember, we also took Hein right off the bat. They settled a little already before they even really got started. Really they should have been recruiting harder for 2019 all along in my opinion. So forgiving not having that other all around difference maker before Seymour left really is not a good argument. They made the choice to take Hein right away as well. In my head, we're whiffing on 3 scholarships in addition to the one on Darwiche. 4 scholarships is a 3rd of the spots. I like Harris. That was great...though completely unproven. And I even really like King as a preferred walk on. However, otherwise....this recruiting period hasn't yielded a lot of fruit yet. Dunn would change that but it seems like the last chance as we're not hearing of anyone else. You’re not going to have 13 studs or even that many rotation guys. I don’t know what you want. If you want to say Carm has been very selective with his use of scholarships I agree. I don’t think think that’s a bad thing. Unlike 16 who would hand them out like candy for fringe D1 guys so recruiting would be done for the year. Of course you don't know. You think we already won the next 3 titles before every new season.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Aug 2, 2019 10:51:33 GMT -5
If we had filled our last scholarship to try to get a little help, then we couldn't have pursued Dunn. Then someone left because we pursued Dunn. Don’t really get the criticism here. With Sloan, the only spot we could have pursued was a guard since no minutes were available anywhere else. We tried for Webster, he chose the beach. Instead grabbed a kid who’d pay his own way. Why throw a spot away, especially when next year you only have 2 seniors. I get wanting to push and go all in (I was the first on this board to say it). But I think saying “why do we have 2 scholarships open” is a dumb take when we were actively recruiting for the last spot and then Sloan left in mid-July. Do you want the scraps just for an extra body? Now if Dunn doesn’t come, it will be interesting to see what we do. But having one spot open into the season is generally a smart move unless you need that 13th guy. Last year we got Burns. More and more guys leave midseason every year. Hell, Villanova never fills all 13 scholarships. It’s a thing Jay Wright does. Remember, we also took Hein right off the bat. They settled a little already before they even really got started. Really they should have been recruiting harder for 2019 all along in my opinion. So forgiving not having that other all around difference maker before Seymour left really is not a good argument. They made the choice to take Hein right away as well. In my head, we're whiffing on 3 scholarships in addition to the one on Darwiche. 4 scholarships is a 3rd of the spots. I like Harris. That was great...though completely unproven. And I even really like King as a preferred walk on. However, otherwise....this recruiting period hasn't yielded a lot of fruit yet. Dunn would change that but it seems like the last chance as we're not hearing of anyone else. But again, all eyes are on 2020. Land an Aidan Carpenter-like guy and another all around contributor and keep everyone else and we're back on track...just maybe a year later than what could have been. We had 3 scholarships open and only 1 senior on the roster in mid May. Signing Hein was what it was.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 11:47:48 GMT -5
Remember, we also took Hein right off the bat. They settled a little already before they even really got started. Really they should have been recruiting harder for 2019 all along in my opinion. So forgiving not having that other all around difference maker before Seymour left really is not a good argument. They made the choice to take Hein right away as well. In my head, we're whiffing on 3 scholarships in addition to the one on Darwiche. 4 scholarships is a 3rd of the spots. I like Harris. That was great...though completely unproven. And I even really like King as a preferred walk on. However, otherwise....this recruiting period hasn't yielded a lot of fruit yet. Dunn would change that but it seems like the last chance as we're not hearing of anyone else. But again, all eyes are on 2020. Land an Aidan Carpenter-like guy and another all around contributor and keep everyone else and we're back on track...just maybe a year later than what could have been. We had 3 scholarships open and only 1 senior on the roster in mid May. Signing Hein was what it was. Hein is not a bad last man. He can defend. It's just the team still needs stars. I felt the same way about Bayer/Darwiche. Get your stars first and backfill the roster later. You don't want to surrender before your first battle.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Aug 2, 2019 11:52:39 GMT -5
We had 3 scholarships open and only 1 senior on the roster in mid May. Signing Hein was what it was. Hein is not a bad last man. He can defend. It's just the team still needs stars. I felt the same way about Bayer/Darwiche. Get your stars first and backfill the roster later. You don't want to surrender before your first battle. He has his 3 stars, then got Harris.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:05:05 GMT -5
Hein is not a bad last man. He can defend. It's just the team still needs stars. I felt the same way about Bayer/Darwiche. Get your stars first and backfill the roster later. You don't want to surrender before your first battle. He has his 3 stars, then got Harris. He has 2 stars...and a potential star in Burns. Seymour and Camper were always role players.
They really needed that other combo guard after losing Richard and Walker. An active all around athletic SF like Harris was a need already before then because the question on Walker was probably mostly his defensive motor. We've always need that other defender to replace Smithen.
It was only 7-8 months ago where we were still talking about needing another contributing wing such as Cruz when we still had both Richard and Walker. So we lost 2..when we needed 3...and only got 1 back so far with Harris. Then we lost Seymour. Maybe you give a half a point for King.
The less depth we have, the more we rely on Harris, Ratliff, and Sutherland to come thru for us. They very well may do that. I like them all a lot... It's just you need more options, the more unproven they are. Not every kid works out like you hope.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:17:19 GMT -5
Hopefully, Dunn commits and it takes a lot of the guess work out of it. He adds a proven commodity and gives Siena an identity on D, on the boards, and on offense.
Without him, they are good but have kind of a mixed and unproven identity. They aren't a great shooting team and they are less of a defensive, driving, and rebounding team. And any injury or poor play from Pickett, Carey, Harris, Camper, Ratliff, Sutherland especially will be felt that much harder....as we need their versatile presences in the 1-4 positions. That's 6 key players for 4 positions that I think really have to come through for us.
That's enough if these guys DO come through to their potential and stay healthy but if they don't....Siena can be had. I really hope Harris, Ratliff, and Sutherland have great years.
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iskout
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Post by iskout on Aug 2, 2019 12:35:04 GMT -5
He has his 3 stars, then got Harris. He has 2 stars...and a potential star in Burns. Seymour and Camper were always role players.
They really needed that other combo guard after losing Richard and Walker. An active all around athletic SF like Harris was a need already before then because the question on Walker was probably mostly his defensive motor. We've always need that other defender to replace Smithen.
It was only 7-8 months ago where we were still talking about needing another contributing wing such as Cruz when we still had both Richard and Walker. So we lost 2..when we needed 3...and only got 1 back so far with Harris. Then we lost Seymour. Maybe you give a half a point for King.
The less depth we have, the more we rely on Harris, Ratliff, and Sutherland to come thru for us. They very well may do that. I like them all a lot... It's just you need more options, the more unproven they are. Not every kid works out like you hope.
Anyone know what happened with Cruz? He's still uncommitted, are his grades that screwed?
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Aug 2, 2019 12:36:42 GMT -5
I understand the point you're making KK. I do. But you've got to put the situation into the proper context. We all thought everything was stable. We had the promising new coach, the best player in the league returning, and the 2019 class of recruits locked and loaded.
Then things started to unravel.
In the span of a few short days in the spring, we lost the coach, the top recruit in the class, and the expected best shooter and 6th man. Then a couple months later in the middle of summer, a starter bailed.
I don't know how much of a recovery you can expect from all that happening so late. It's a miracle they got Harris. Your expectation is that they should have replaced all those losses with a deep well of backup plan talent for 2019. It doesn't work that way. Most of the best inventory of players was committed elsewhere and they had to put this thing back together by re-recruiting everyone already on the roster and everyone coming. I think Carm has done an outstanding job given the circumstances.
I think you're expectations are unrealistic. You point to Cluess, but look at how he recruits. There are no limits as to who that school will take. You never know who is going to be on their roster until September and you never know who's going to flunk out or assault someone next. They often take players no one else would touch, so of course they always have people available to them to reload with. Siena doesn't do things that way. No one in the league does. Which is why Iona dominates I suppose. But you have to accept that Siena is not a win at all costs school. Now we have a coach who is an alumnus. He's going to play Siena basketball and win the Siena way. That means patience, not instant fixes.
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Post by MTS on Aug 2, 2019 12:47:14 GMT -5
Keeping your roster together is an important thing. Yes it is different than Fran nearly a decade ago I fully acknowledge that. Could Jalen Pickett go to the NBA after his sophomore year? Perhaps if he has an unbelievable year - but it's far from a given.
Fran got a stud very late in Kenny a few months after taking the job. The next year he hit the mother load bringing in three big time players (Ubiles-Franklin-Moore). The year after that he got a really good player in Clarence Jackson and the best big man in Siena history Ryan Rossiter. He sprinkled a few key role guys in like Duell, Downey, Wignot etc and that was the three year championship dynasty was built on.
Carm inherited three really good players (Pickett, Carey, Burns) of course he had a lot of do with Jalen coming to Siena. He signed potentially a very good one on paper in Harris. If we can land Dunn that's two in this class before he coaches his first game as a head coach.
It's hard to land three studs in one class. When Fran did it Siena did not have a lot of the roster. Right now prospective guards see Pickett/Carey are only sophomores.
Jimmy didn't put enough around Wright but one Pickett is better than Wright and two he signed a bunch of lower-major guys which killed the bench. His best signing was Nico - who while talented was not a team player.
I'm betting Carm signs a big 3 or 4 man class in 2020 when there is more separation. Of course we're trying to win a title now because you can't assume everything will be the same. But he's also building Siena to being a championship contender year in and year out!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:48:20 GMT -5
I understand the point you're making KK. I do. But you've got to put the situation into the proper context. We all thought everything was stable. We had the promising new coach, the best player in the league returning, and the 2019 class of recruits locked and loaded. Then things started to unravel. In the span of a few short days in the spring, we lost the coach, the top recruit in the class, and the expected best shooter and 6th man. Then a couple months later in the middle of summer, a starter bailed. I don't know how much of a recovery you can expect from all that happening so late. It's a miracle they got Harris. Your expectation is that they should have replaced all those losses with a deep well of backup plan talent for 2019. It doesn't work that way. Most of the best inventory of players was committed elsewhere and they had to put this thing back together by re-recruiting everyone already on the roster and everyone coming. I think Carm has done an outstanding job given the circumstances. I think you're expectations are unrealistic. You point to Cluess, but look at how he recruits. There are no limits as to who that school will take. You never know who is going to be on their roster until September and you never know who's going to flunk out or assault someone next. They often take players no one else would touch, so of course they always have people available to them to reload with. Siena doesn't do things that way. No one in the league does. Which is why Iona dominates I suppose. But you have to accept that Siena is not a win at all costs school. Now we have a coach who is an alumnus. He's going to play Siena basketball and win the Siena way. That means patience, not instant fixes. You make it sound like everyone at Iona flunks out lol. They graduate more players than Siena does. You're always making out Siena to be on some great moral high ground over Iona. They aren't. About the same.
I understand Carm's challenges. I do. I'm not bashing Carm. I like Carm. And I think he's starting to target the right guys.
I'm just saying that, I think more could have been done and we likely need more to get done to win a title. You made the same argument last year for Bayer and Darwiche when I said the same stuff about them. You make recruiting sound like rocket science.
Tim Cluess would never give a scholarship to a Bayer/Darwiche/Gottfriend/Hein...whomever. It would never happen.
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mike60
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Post by mike60 on Aug 2, 2019 13:30:06 GMT -5
If Clues is so great how come he is still at Iona? How many championships would he have won if Fran had stayed. I agree he is a very good Maac coach who had the luxury of competing against 3 very substandard Siena coaches.
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