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Post by greengold4ever on May 14, 2018 10:45:04 GMT -5
Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan... There's been a long line of face up 4's coming thru here the last few years. So far, we're basically 1 for a lot. Aside from Bisping, we always run into the same problem: They struggled to defend, score inside, or rebound. Maybe some were used wrong or never realized their potential but we keep going down the same road. If a big is only going to average 4 or 5 rebounds per 30 mins played and not block any shots anyway....you're better of just going with another athletic wing and forgetting about the slower face up 4....not to mention that in a Mayhem system you're better off with a 6-5 guy who can take care of the ball and run around forcing turnovers. If it were me, I'd be recruiting PGs, big athletic combo wings, and centers. If you can't handle the ball, force turnovers, rebound or block shots...I'd just move on. I'd recruit a team of Penn's, Pickett's, Welch's, and then find a defensive center to cover your ass in the back of the press and rebound. If he scores over 9 ppg, it's a bonus. Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan...........amid the deficiencies folks are throwing around....................not for nothing, buy Seymour is a way better shooter right now than any of these...................
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Post by sienafanallyearlong2 on May 14, 2018 10:45:46 GMT -5
Give the coach and the kid a chance. Bisbing probably came into the program much less heralded than Wolfe did, (who I still believe if given the chance to play extended minutes could have been very good), and look what he turned into. SS could certainly ly turn into a Bretton type of player. Huerter I think will flourish in this new system. I think his offensive production will take a big jump forward this year.
The fact that he is a worthy D-1 prospect and is local is very big.
Who knows....if he is successful "this year" in bringing this new style of play to Siena with a lot of 3's being chucked up and they are winning games doing it, whose to say Joe Girard doesn't reconsider and decide to forego going big time and instead chooses to stay local?
At a place where he has the real opportunity to becoming the programs all time leading scorer as a four year starter who would be playing for a guy who is encouraging him to shoot and keep shooting the three ball?
If he goes to a place like Duke, he may end up being just another guy like Koubek was, but if he chose Siena, his opportunity to be a 4 yr starter and star would increase dramatically, especially under a system such as this.
If I were JC, regardless of the odds, one of my very first local visits would be to the Girards.
No matter the odds, until he signs somewhere else, you never give up on this type of local talent that fits right into the type of system you play. Never.
The fact that he has the conditioning program that he has in the end will make the Girard kid that much harder to defend.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on May 14, 2018 10:53:09 GMT -5
I’m still apprehensiive about this signing but after sleeping on it, I’m starting to like it. Maybe I’m just talking myself into it or have JC blinders on right now, but here are my thoughts. Interested to hear what you all think of them. Where most of you (including myself) have seen Sloan is Shaker. Shaker’s guards were not good and they ran almost no pick and pop action for Sloan, which would be their best bet. No spacing either. Team was not well coached, knew a few guys who played for him and said he he was clueless. Right now, Sloan isn’t a player who can dominate a game even in high school because he isn’t a plus athlete nor does he have great ball skills. However, for the Rens, he was very efficient, 8 points in 13 minutes a night. Didn’t do much else, but what he did, he was pretty darn good at. With the Rens, he played with a TON of talented guards and wings (Cormac Ryan, Luther Muhammad, Robby Carmody, Bryce Wills, Alan Griffin, and Khalid Moore are all going to P5 programs). They spaced the floor extremely well in a 4 out, 1 in offense, and Sloan thrived. He could pick and pop and be the beneficiary of drive and kick looks. In Sloan’s interview with Michael Kelly, he says this on what Jamion pitched him on: “Just stretching the defense and playing five-out basketball,” That’s super hard to guard for any team. We want to create mayhem on the court.” If Jamion is going to go all in on the 3 and not worry too much about losing on the boards (similar to what he did at MSM), Sloan fits that pretty well. If you give him space, he’s going to hit shots, and he can shoot over anyone in the MAAC with his size and quick release. Only thing he isn’t going to give you is anything defensively, but hopefully he becomes slightly less of a turnstile defensively with JC’s coaching and work in the weight room (that could help him rebound too). The long list that KK gave of stretch 4’s that didn’t pan out all played for coaches whose systems somewhat accentuated their weaknesses while not fully maximizing their strengths. If nothing else Sloan can be used as a role player off the bench, IMO. If he never develops beyond that, too bad. But JC was never going to get this kid if he prepped and developed, instead he gets a chance at developing himself as more than just a shooter. The motor is the only thing that really concerns me, but i dont know how much of that is him being a quiet kid and how much is he actually doesn’t care. Sorry for the essay everyone lol. Nice writeup/analysis. Thanks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 10:54:29 GMT -5
Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan... There's been a long line of face up 4's coming thru here the last few years. So far, we're basically 1 for a lot. Aside from Bisping, we always run into the same problem: They struggled to defend, score inside, or rebound. Maybe some were used wrong or never realized their potential but we keep going down the same road. If a big is only going to average 4 or 5 rebounds per 30 mins played and not block any shots anyway....you're better of just going with another athletic wing and forgetting about the slower face up 4....not to mention that in a Mayhem system you're better off with a 6-5 guy who can take care of the ball and run around forcing turnovers. If it were me, I'd be recruiting PGs, big athletic combo wings, and centers. If you can't handle the ball, force turnovers, rebound or block shots...I'd just move on. I'd recruit a team of Penn's, Pickett's, Welch's, and then find a defensive center to cover your ass in the back of the press and rebound. If he scores over 9 ppg, it's a bonus. Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan...........amid the deficiencies folks are throwing around....................not for nothing, buy Seymour is a way better shooter right now than any of these................... Maybe. He hasn't played a single game in D1 yet... Career 3 pt shooting:Bisping = 35% WB = 42.9% Fisher = 34.8% (shot 57% as frosh, 16.7% soph, 38% junior) Degnan = 32.3% Huerter = 34.5%
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Post by greengold4ever on May 14, 2018 11:09:31 GMT -5
Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan...........amid the deficiencies folks are throwing around....................not for nothing, buy Seymour is a way better shooter right now than any of these................... Maybe. He hasn't played a single game in D1 yet... Career 3 pt shooting:Bisping = 35% WB = 42.9% Fisher = 34.8% (shot 57% as frosh, 16.7% soph, 38% junior) Degnan = 32.3% Huerter = 34.5% other than Bisping, who we could only hope he turns out to be a player like that............those others are not and never were sound perimeter shooters, sure they can knock down a shot from deep every now & then, but they aren't anywhere near a volume type deep shooter as Seymour.......and that isn't to say Sloan's pct will be great right away, we can only hope that those he takes he knocks down a good clip of them..........
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 11:13:29 GMT -5
Maybe. He hasn't played a single game in D1 yet... Career 3 pt shooting:Bisping = 35% WB = 42.9% Fisher = 34.8% (shot 57% as frosh, 16.7% soph, 38% junior) Degnan = 32.3% Huerter = 34.5% other than Bisping, who we could only hope he turns out to be a player like that............those others are not and never were sound perimeter shooters, sure they can knock down a shot from deep every now & then, but they aren't anywhere near a volume type deep shooter as Seymour.......and that isn't to say Sloan's pct will be great right away, we can only hope that those he takes he knocks down a good clip of them.......... Well, to be fair, they played for Jimmy. He was the coach in the MAAC who attempted the fewest threes year after year. Siena could often shoot pretty well under Jimmy...they just didn't attempt many. It's easy to say they're not shooters when they weren't allowed to shoot. Bisping's HS coach was once quoted as saying Brett was one of the best shooters he's ever had.
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on May 14, 2018 11:21:32 GMT -5
Maybe. He hasn't played a single game in D1 yet... Career 3 pt shooting:Bisping = 35% WB = 42.9% Fisher = 34.8% (shot 57% as frosh, 16.7% soph, 38% junior) Degnan = 32.3% Huerter = 34.5% other than Bisping, who we could only hope he turns out to be a player like that............those others are not and never were sound perimeter shooters, sure they can knock down a shot from deep every now & then, but they aren't anywhere near a volume type deep shooter as Seymour.......and that isn't to say Sloan's pct will be great right away, we can only hope that those he takes he knocks down a good clip of them.......... Fisher and Huerter are okay shooters but both need time to get their shot off. They will never be volume shooters though will see more opportunities in a system designed to get outside shooters open looks. I'm interested to see what Degnan can do, he moves better than either Friday or Fisher. Think this system may fit his skill sets but he's still not a shooter. You're not really comparing WB and his 12 career 3's to a guy known to be a shooter, are you? I'd stay away from comparing SS to any of the face up 4's you talk about. That position doesn't really exist in the Mayhem world. He is a wing, a big one, but a wing. Defensively, they do more with spacing and doubles then with direct pressure. (Which is why his teams do not foul much) Let the guy get the roster he wants in place and then we'll see what's what.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on May 14, 2018 11:21:46 GMT -5
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 14, 2018 11:32:12 GMT -5
We get it bro. His game went into the tank and all his offers went away. Maybe JC is hoping he can restore him to form. In any event, it's a done deal. Let it go. I dont think you do. He was recruited as a sophomore because of the "potential," he had. He's 6'8" and can shoot. Those 2 attributes are still there. His game hasnt changed. The schools on that list still went away, and thats why he was going to prep school. Two things you cant control: Athleticism and desire. SS lacks both. I loved everything JC was doing up til this. Future looked bright. Signing of Pickett showed me he wanted TOUGH kids that HATE LOSING and have the ability to apply the kind of pressure on the opponent where he can use a term like, "mayhem." No, I get it. He drew the interest he did because of his potential. What I don't understand is why you've written off that potential as gone forever. If he ends up a bust, so be it. But that's still TBD. He somehow averaged 19 ppg and 6.8 rpg senior year - that doesn't scream bust to me. We'll see. Dude hasn't played a minute of college ball yet, so I'm not ready to write him off quite yet. But that's just me.
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Post by greengold4ever on May 14, 2018 11:35:22 GMT -5
not sure on your point, MOST if not all Siena/MAAC recruits are 2 stars...................there have probably been 3 stars along the way, but in many ways that rating system if not always quantitative can be more "subjective"..............and not saying that isn't the case with Seymour..................but if Hasbrouck is a 2 star (as was Nico & Wright who was MD Gatorade POY), many mid-major recruits get "labeled" a 2 star, possibly 3 at best since that is the level they end up..............but those that end up at higher end programs always get the higher ratings..........and again not saying it is an apples to apples comparison, but a clear bias in the ratings in many ways....................
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on May 14, 2018 11:36:42 GMT -5
My point is directly related to the Topic "Best Recuit Ever"... Amazes me how often things need to be spelled out to some of you on here. Pay attention to the Subject and then read the post as it relates to the topic... I try to keep it simple for some of you on here... and yet still, some want to question what is meant by the post... entertaining for sure. The players you mentioned were clearly two star recruits as they related to their peers that were being recruited at the same time. That does not mean that a player can develop and become better than the typical 2 star recruit. Just as some 2 star recruits never become what they were supposed to be.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 14, 2018 11:37:58 GMT -5
Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan... There's been a long line of face up 4's coming thru here the last few years. So far, we're basically 1 for a lot. Aside from Bisping, we always run into the same problem: They struggled to defend, score inside, or rebound. Maybe some were used wrong or never realized their potential but we keep going down the same road. If a big is only going to average 4 or 5 rebounds per 30 mins played and not block any shots anyway....you're better off just going with another athletic wing and forgetting about the slower face up 4....not to mention that in a Mayhem system you're better off with a 6-5 guy who can take care of the ball and run around forcing turnovers. If it were me, I'd be recruiting PGs, big athletic ballhawking combo wings, and centers. If you can't handle the ball, force turnovers, rebound or block shots...I'd just move on. I'd recruit a team of Penn's, Pickett's, Welch's, and then find a defensive center to cover your ass in the back of the press and rebound. If he scores over 9 ppg, it's a bonus. St. John's actually envisioned using him at the 3 in the article I posted. How would you feel about using him there sort of like how Jim Cantemessa was used by Hewitt?
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 14, 2018 11:41:44 GMT -5
That was his junior year. (check the date of the article ... 7/24/17) Think he was around 15ppg as a Sr. Even so, the 15 ppg senior year average is not something one would expect of an absolute project, no?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 11:52:46 GMT -5
Martens, Wolfe, WB, Fisher, Heurter, Bisping, Degnan... There's been a long line of face up 4's coming thru here the last few years. So far, we're basically 1 for a lot. Aside from Bisping, we always run into the same problem: They struggled to defend, score inside, or rebound. Maybe some were used wrong or never realized their potential but we keep going down the same road. If a big is only going to average 4 or 5 rebounds per 30 mins played and not block any shots anyway....you're better off just going with another athletic wing and forgetting about the slower face up 4....not to mention that in a Mayhem system you're better off with a 6-5 guy who can take care of the ball and run around forcing turnovers. If it were me, I'd be recruiting PGs, big athletic ballhawking combo wings, and centers. If you can't handle the ball, force turnovers, rebound or block shots...I'd just move on. I'd recruit a team of Penn's, Pickett's, Welch's, and then find a defensive center to cover your ass in the back of the press and rebound. If he scores over 9 ppg, it's a bonus. St. John's actually envisioned using him at the 3 in the article I posted. How would you feel about using him there sort of like how Jim Cantemessa was used by Hewitt? You're missing my point. Does he help the turnover margin or rebounding margin enough to warrant playing him over another faster and better ball handling guard?
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Post by greengold4ever on May 14, 2018 14:51:38 GMT -5
St. John's actually envisioned using him at the 3 in the article I posted. How would you feel about using him there sort of like how Jim Cantemessa was used by Hewitt? You're missing my point. Does he help the turnover margin or rebounding margin enough to warrant playing him over another faster and better ball handling guard? we get it, because of the style of play that JC wants to employ..........but let's also remember, bottom line we need to win the "scoring" margin..........we could essentially win the TO & REB margin, yet now win the game............so just sayin', numbers are great, but we still have to outscore the other team...............
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