indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 24, 2018 20:40:40 GMT -5
Very disappointing season. 17-17. Monmouth game was pure Nico and a lot of luck. Not much to be proud of with the players we had. Most thought that was a 22-25 win season. Don't you dare say it was luck. Oh by the way Monmouth had 55 wins in two seasons and has the same number of NCAA appearances as every other maac team not named Iona. You've told us yourself it's all luck.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 24, 2018 20:44:22 GMT -5
Watching Loyola Chicago win the South Regional, you cannot help but think what Siena could have been. However, Change will come at some point and we will rise again. Keep positive thoughts that this awful era will end. We just do not know when. They had a 33 year drought from the tournament. I wonder how many fans quit on that program. Perfect Strom for them, got the right group of transfers. Coach will probably bolt in seventh year and really the only year they competed for a conference title. Great job by them and a fun team to watch and it was the perfect set up and yes luck. You don't win 3 games by 4 points without luck. Yes. Coach was just interviewed and said he and the team spent most of their practices looking for 4 leaf clovers.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Mar 25, 2018 2:06:11 GMT -5
Bottom line it's a business, not Little League. People get fired over losing. Sure - People get fired for losing, but they continue to get paid until the end of the contract. Thats not true. You think Patsos is guaranteed 3 years of salary? He's guaranteed 2, but not the 3rd. You should work for the NFL players association. They want the same guaranteed 4 year deals you want the all the 4 year college kids to get?! There's no guarantees in life. Scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis. Do we all like when kids stay 4 years and have productive, successful careers? Of course, but at his point, you're talking about a coach trying to save his job and you expect him to win with kids that probably arent good enough to play here. YOU: "Thats his fault, he recruited them!" You're right. He gave them something (A D-1 scholarship) that they didnt deserve, so they should be grateful that the opportunity was afforded to them. Hopefully they can convince another D-1 coach that they have the skills to play for his college. If they cant, they drop down, like where most of the kids that leave end up, to the D-2 level. They give full scholarships too.
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Mar 25, 2018 5:28:11 GMT -5
Sure - People get fired for losing, but they continue to get paid until the end of the contract. Thats not true. You think Patsos is guaranteed 3 years of salary? He's guaranteed 2, but not the 3rd. You should work for the NFL players association. They want the same guaranteed 4 year deals you want the all the 4 year college kids to get?! There's no guarantees in life. Scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis. Do we all like when kids stay 4 years and have productive, successful careers? Of course, but at his point, you're talking about a coach trying to save his job and you expect him to win with kids that probably arent good enough to play here. YOU: "Thats his fault, he recruited them!" You're right. He gave them something (A D-1 scholarship) that they didnt deserve, so they should be grateful that the opportunity was afforded to them. Hopefully they can convince another D-1 coach that they have the skills to play for his college. If they cant, they drop down, like where most of the kids that leave end up, to the D-2 level. They give full scholarships too. The contract is what it is. You can blame JP for his poor recruiting, ineffectual game calling planning, his lack bringing the kids along. The thing you can blame on him is the contract details. That is strictly accountable to the AD and school administration. The contents of the contract are not generally known with exception of the length. Again before commenting get the contract published, published guarantee the outcry will be such that AD and admin may just resign. Those clowns agreed to the contract.
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Mar 25, 2018 7:13:20 GMT -5
Very disappointing season. 17-17. Monmouth game was pure Nico and a lot of luck. Not much to be proud of with the players we had. Most thought that was a 22-25 win season. Don't you dare say it was luck. Oh by the way Monmouth had 55 wins in two seasons and has the same number of NCAA appearances as every other maac team not named Iona. I'd take that 55 wins in 2 seasons and a disappointing finish over the dumpster fire patsos has been stoking...believe jp has 57 wins over 4 years, for perspective.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 25, 2018 11:04:03 GMT -5
Sure - People get fired for losing, but they continue to get paid until the end of the contract. Thats not true. You think Patsos is guaranteed 3 years of salary? He's guaranteed 2, but not the 3rd. You should work for the NFL players association. They want the same guaranteed 4 year deals you want the all the 4 year college kids to get?! There's no guarantees in life. Scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis. Do we all like when kids stay 4 years and have productive, successful careers? Of course, but at his point, you're talking about a coach trying to save his job and you expect him to win with kids that probably arent good enough to play here. YOU: "Thats his fault, he recruited them!" You're right. He gave them something (A D-1 scholarship) that they didnt deserve, so they should be grateful that the opportunity was afforded to them. Hopefully they can convince another D-1 coach that they have the skills to play for his college. If they cant, they drop down, like where most of the kids that leave end up, to the D-2 level. They give full scholarships too. So you think the guarantee ends in 2 years? I think that's the 1st I've heard that here. But still that is still 2 years that the school has to pay for THEIR 'mistake', if that's what they believe. I believe a coach should have a similar responsibility/obligation to his players. Like Papi, you put most of the onus on the kids - and making it seem like a 17-18 year old kid is duping a well-paid professional. You missed the comment I made right before yours where I talked about the coaching staff (at least 2, maybe 3 professionals paid to evaluate and develop talent) following a kid for months/years, visiting their homes & parents, bringing them to campus and convincing them and their family to buy into his school. That's his/their job and, ultimately, the head coach's decision to offer. If the kid doesn't work out as to what the staff expected, that is the staff's mistake and I believe something they should accept. Now if the coach wants to be honest and tell the kid he won't see the floor much and this is how I see your role, that's fine and the coach and player can agree to part ways. It seems like we have made MULTIPLE mistakes in evaluating and recruiting (including not being available to recruits at critical times). Evidence the fact that we had ZERO seniors this year and only one entering the senior year that started as a frosh. In addition when we did get a transfer, it doesn't appear that we are getting much benefit from it. There's even talk he won't be back. That's 2 years of scholarship for 1 season of little minutes and contribution - a VERY costly mistake. I don't believe the kids should pay for the staff's mistakes. Probably a philosophical difference between you and I that we will not be able to reconcile.
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Post by greengold4ever on Mar 25, 2018 11:05:33 GMT -5
Sure - People get fired for losing, but they continue to get paid until the end of the contract. Thats not true. You think Patsos is guaranteed 3 years of salary? He's guaranteed 2, but not the 3rd. You should work for the NFL players association. They want the same guaranteed 4 year deals you want the all the 4 year college kids to get?! There's no guarantees in life. Scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis. Do we all like when kids stay 4 years and have productive, successful careers? Of course, but at his point, you're talking about a coach trying to save his job and you expect him to win with kids that probably arent good enough to play here. YOU: "Thats his fault, he recruited them!" You're right. He gave them something (A D-1 scholarship) that they didnt deserve, so they should be grateful that the opportunity was afforded to them. Hopefully they can convince another D-1 coach that they have the skills to play for his college. If they cant, they drop down, like where most of the kids that leave end up, to the D-2 level. They give full scholarships too. I hear you HJ, and you are absolutely correct...............the only pause I bring up, is that the whole situation of scholarships/recruiting is a real "slippery slope"............remember, part of this is when the coach goes into that living room to talk to the recruit/family and is "selling" the kid on all the positives that he is offering ...........like available playing time, playing in a big time arena compared to on campus gyms, past success of the program, avid & large fan base for a mid-major, prominent local media coverage, solid academic offerings along with positive campus life...........much like a car salesman, certain things are promised, others are discussed, and the student athlete has their own agenda as well (much of which is likely centered around available playing time or at the very least the opportunity for such)............but as we know, once the kid arrives on campus, things over time can change, whether it be from the coaching stance or from the player itself..........it is the way things are at every school, what I think we can agree on is HOW the lines of communication happen in those instances when either the coach or player decide a "change of scenery" is the best course of action to follow............as long as their is a continuum of that communication then there shouldn't be any complaints from either side...........where I think things get ugly, is when the sold "bill of goods" or promises are not kept (and that can be from the coach or the player)..........we shouldn't be ok with rugs being pulled out from under student athletes, that is a tough pill to swallow since the coach should be recruiting to fit the needs of the program, with both short & long term goals in mind, it falls squarely on him & his staff during the evaluating process (the better they are during the evaluating process, the greater chance of achieving program success)..............13 scholarships are available every yr, we know realistically that a solid 8-9 man playing rotation is most desirable (some schools can play 10, but that is not the norm & very difficult to do), so a roster will always have a number of players outside the nucleus, how those kids are coached is just as important as those getting the lions share of the available playing minutes.............having a roster of full of role players is essentially a recipe for disaster, and now when a coach is backed into a corner he is trying to fix 5 yrs of inadequate recruiting by bringing in 1 talented class to make up for lost time.......how this turns out is yet to be determined.........
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 25, 2018 11:06:00 GMT -5
Don't you dare say it was luck. Oh by the way Monmouth had 55 wins in two seasons and has the same number of NCAA appearances as every other maac team not named Iona. I'd take that 55 wins in 2 seasons and a disappointing finish over the dumpster fire patsos has been stoking...believe jp has 57 wins over 4 years, for perspective. Perspective means nothing to Papi..
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 25, 2018 11:41:35 GMT -5
I agree with hj and green gold forever, the only other point I will bring up is I believe most kids transfer to d2 when forc d out because of the wait one rule. That rule has to go if we are going to allow a free for all.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 25, 2018 11:51:33 GMT -5
I agree with hj and green gold forever, the only other point I will bring up is I believe most kids transfer to d2 when forc d out because of the wait one rule. That rule has to go if we are going to allow a free for all. When you say you agree, you don't think a school/coach has any obligation/responsibility for his recruiting mistakes ? This could be for ANY reason, ranging from just mis-evaluated the kid to where he missed on higher recruits and had to 'settle' for kids of lower talent. So, he just gets to say "You didn't work out for me. See ya." As many times as he feels necessary. And again, I am not accounting for academic or character issues. I think a coach should be held accountable for those 'mistakes'.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 25, 2018 12:12:14 GMT -5
I agree with hj and green gold forever, the only other point I will bring up is I believe most kids transfer to d2 when forc d out because of the wait one rule. That rule has to go if we are going to allow a free for all. When you say you agree, you don't think a school/coach has any obligation/responsibility for his recruiting mistakes ? This could be for ANY reason, ranging from just mis-evaluated the kid to where he missed on higher recruits and had to 'settle' for kids of lower talent. So, he just gets to say "You didn't work out for me. See ya." As many times as he feels necessary. And again, I am not accounting for academic or character issues. I think a coach should be held accountable for those 'mistakes'. No I posted several times on this topic so my position has been made perfectly clear. Hj in his latest post qualified that our coach would set him up with another d1 program. Do you think any kid would want to play in a toxic environment, or think he has a fair shot at playing time when he doesn’t? If it’s a mutual parting of ways I don’t like it but it’s the best solution. What I have an issue with is the d2 transfers or out on street transfer (don’t know if that’s happened). And it still doesn’t absolve the coach from producing winning records... if a coach has too many transfers he’s doing something wrong.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 25, 2018 12:20:25 GMT -5
When you say you agree, you don't think a school/coach has any obligation/responsibility for his recruiting mistakes ? This could be for ANY reason, ranging from just mis-evaluated the kid to where he missed on higher recruits and had to 'settle' for kids of lower talent. So, he just gets to say "You didn't work out for me. See ya." As many times as he feels necessary. And again, I am not accounting for academic or character issues. I think a coach should be held accountable for those 'mistakes'. No I posted several times on this topic so my position has been made perfectly clear. Hj in his latest post qualified that our coach would set him up with another d1 program. Do you think any kid would want to play in a toxic environment, or think he has a fair shot at playing time when he doesn’t? If it’s a mutual parting of ways I don’t like it but it’s the best solution. What I have an issue with is the d2 transfers or out on street transfer (don’t know if that’s happened). And it still doesn’t absolve the coach from producing winning records... if a coach has too many transfers he’s doing something wrong. I've said before if it's the kids decision and they come to a mutual parting, then fine. I just do not agree a coach should be able to say 'You're gone. Not renewing you. " Since the coach has the greater power of public communication, he always holds the upper hand and can spin it to his benefit, so I would have to put some of the responsibility back on the school (and maybe the NCAA).
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 25, 2018 12:51:51 GMT -5
No I posted several times on this topic so my position has been made perfectly clear. Hj in his latest post qualified that our coach would set him up with another d1 program. Do you think any kid would want to play in a toxic environment, or think he has a fair shot at playing time when he doesn’t? If it’s a mutual parting of ways I don’t like it but it’s the best solution. What I have an issue with is the d2 transfers or out on street transfer (don’t know if that’s happened). And it still doesn’t absolve the coach from producing winning records... if a coach has too many transfers he’s doing something wrong. I've said before if it's the kids decision and they come to a mutual parting, then fine. I just do not agree a coach should be able to say 'You're gone. Not renewing you. " Since the coach has the greater power of public communication, he always holds the upper hand and can spin it to his benefit, so I would have to put some of the responsibility back on the school (and maybe the NCAA). . Not sure how you are saying anything different than me, but feel free to vent.
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Post by sienafanallyearlong2 on Mar 25, 2018 13:19:44 GMT -5
It's not or should not be a two way street. When your not talking about education issues or disciplanary issues the student athlete should always be in control of their own destiny.
The only promise a coach and school should have to keep is that they will do their best to provide a student athlete with a safe environment and provide them all the tools they will need to try their best to succeed in the classroom and on the floor so that they can graduate in 4 or 5 yrs.
Graduation is they key word in this promise.
There is not a coach out there telling a recruit or their family that should they decide to come to Siena but not develop into a contributing member of a successful team that they may not be offered a scholarship come their sophomore or junior year.
It is not a business for the student or their family. It is not a tryout and cut scenario.
It is a major life decision for any student athlete and their family that for most is not based on what the alternative will be if they are not part of the 8 or 9 man rotation come their sophomore or junior year. That scenario of looking for another school to transfer to and play at does not even come into their thought process unless the coach upfront tells them about this process; which no coach is doing unless he is talking to a walk on type athlete.
It would be interesting to know the numbers of how many kids forced out of the program ended up with scholarships at other D1 and D2 schools and how many others just were never heard of again?
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mjs72
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Post by mjs72 on Mar 25, 2018 13:19:58 GMT -5
Thats not true. You think Patsos is guaranteed 3 years of salary? He's guaranteed 2, but not the 3rd. You should work for the NFL players association. They want the same guaranteed 4 year deals you want the all the 4 year college kids to get?! There's no guarantees in life. Scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis. Do we all like when kids stay 4 years and have productive, successful careers? Of course, but at his point, you're talking about a coach trying to save his job and you expect him to win with kids that probably arent good enough to play here. YOU: "Thats his fault, he recruited them!" You're right. He gave them something (A D-1 scholarship) that they didnt deserve, so they should be grateful that the opportunity was afforded to them. Hopefully they can convince another D-1 coach that they have the skills to play for his college. If they cant, they drop down, like where most of the kids that leave end up, to the D-2 level. They give full scholarships too. The contract is what it is. You can blame JP for his poor recruiting, ineffectual game calling planning, his lack bringing the kids along. The thing you can blame on him is the contract details. That is strictly accountable to the AD and school administration. The contents of the contract are not generally known with exception of the length. Again before commenting get the contract published, published guarantee the outcry will be such that AD and admin may just resign. Those clowns agreed to the contract. OD, remember that the school and JP's agent did not sit down and negotiate a contract of their own making. In any industry, there are certain terms, practices and even compensation concepts that have been developed over time and have been used so much they become almost standard. Jimmy and his agent had a fair degree of leverage from this fact. Sure you can customize it to some extent but certain things are pretty much "take it or leave it" if you want that particular coach. Unless the aspiring coach is fairly new or desperate the industry is going to expect their deal will have certain terms. Buyouts are one of them. Now the premature extension has proven to be a disaster, and that is on the AD and Administration, but the may not be as blameful for the initial deal. The contracts really are, at least in part, "what they are."
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