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Post by clickclack on Mar 9, 2018 12:30:15 GMT -5
Hey OI, here is why they are referencing 3 years. Clack states that over the last 3 years, Albany has lost 6 and Siena, 9. This is factually incorrect. Siena has lost 5 over that time frame. You then added Hopper and Audu, who also left prior to that time frame. JP should absolutely be taken to task for having no seniors and/or impact Jr's on the current roster. No one disputes that. But the transfer pattern, overall, out of JP's Saints over 5 years is not all that different than Albany or the other MAAC programs. Wow, someone else out here actually gets it. I agree with EVERY word you wrote, because its common sense. Dont hold your breathe on OI getting it, or backing up. He's the lead car on the "trash the program everyday" train. I'm not dying on the transfer cross...look at the historical record of transfers every single year NCAA wide and expected to get worse with no sitout rule coming. Siena and Patsos is NOT immune when it comes to transfers. It's an epidemic. There's plenty of other things to kill Patsos on. OI has a point...you have to try and keep core together instead of looking year in and year out for new leadership etc. I think Brown loses a lot of periphery kids but does well keeping his core together and just switches the ancillary pieces around them. If you are going to have a lot of transfers, you better be able to reload and mold a team like Brown has 5 of 6 years being 20+ wins and the one that hasn't been 20 wins was 19. What Patsos is doing is lots of recruiting mistakes and then not being able to recover, leading to years like this year. While Brown is rolling out a core like Nichols, Cremo, Stire, Charles and in years past guys like Hooley, Rowley brothers, Black etc. guys who know what Brown wants and putting supporting cast around them. My sense is Patsos has no strong core both system and leadership wise leading to folks not having defined roles, no rotations etc. spoiler alert: I expect the same patter this spring for Albany. P.S. never trust KenPom for transfer info...lol!
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Mar 9, 2018 13:19:27 GMT -5
Wow, someone else out here actually gets it. I agree with EVERY word you wrote, because its common sense. Dont hold your breathe on OI getting it, or backing up. He's the lead car on the "trash the program everyday" train. I'm not dying on the transfer cross...look at the historical record of transfers every single year NCAA wide and expected to get worse with no sitout rule coming. Siena and Patsos is NOT immune when it comes to transfers. It's an epidemic. There's plenty of other things to kill Patsos on. OI has a point...you have to try and keep core together instead of looking year in and year out for new leadership etc. I think Brown loses a lot of periphery kids but does well keeping his core together and just switches the ancillary pieces around them. If you are going to have a lot of transfers, you better be able to reload and mold a team like Brown has 5 of 6 years being 20+ wins and the one that hasn't been 20 wins was 19. What Patsos is doing is lots of recruiting mistakes and then not being able to recover, leading to years like this year. While Brown is rolling out a core like Nichols, Cremo, Stire, Charles and in years past guys like Hooley, Rowley brothers, Black etc. guys who know what Brown wants and putting supporting cast around them. My sense is Patsos has no strong core both system and leadership wise leading to folks not having defined roles, no rotations etc. spoiler alert: I expect the same patter this spring for Albany. P.S. never trust KenPom for transfer info...lol! They'll never get rid of the sit out rule other than where the coach leaves. Should go back to no exceptions/waivers.
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Post by clickclack on Mar 9, 2018 13:21:53 GMT -5
I'm not dying on the transfer cross...look at the historical record of transfers every single year NCAA wide and expected to get worse with no sitout rule coming. Siena and Patsos is NOT immune when it comes to transfers. It's an epidemic. There's plenty of other things to kill Patsos on. OI has a point...you have to try and keep core together instead of looking year in and year out for new leadership etc. I think Brown loses a lot of periphery kids but does well keeping his core together and just switches the ancillary pieces around them. If you are going to have a lot of transfers, you better be able to reload and mold a team like Brown has 5 of 6 years being 20+ wins and the one that hasn't been 20 wins was 19. What Patsos is doing is lots of recruiting mistakes and then not being able to recover, leading to years like this year. While Brown is rolling out a core like Nichols, Cremo, Stire, Charles and in years past guys like Hooley, Rowley brothers, Black etc. guys who know what Brown wants and putting supporting cast around them. My sense is Patsos has no strong core both system and leadership wise leading to folks not having defined roles, no rotations etc. spoiler alert: I expect the same patter this spring for Albany. P.S. never trust KenPom for transfer info...lol! They'll never get rid of the sit out rule other than where the coach leaves. Should go back to no exceptions/waivers. Admittedly I'm not very close to it but remember reading that it's under very serious consideration...is that not the case?
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Mar 9, 2018 13:33:19 GMT -5
They'll never get rid of the sit out rule other than where the coach leaves. Should go back to no exceptions/waivers. Admittedly I'm not very close to it but remember reading that it's under very serious consideration...is that not the case? I don't believe that to be in the conversation. Not one coach in D1 would want it. They would basically have to re-recruit their teams after each season.
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Post by blockhead43 on Mar 9, 2018 13:42:15 GMT -5
I was told two years ago Siena was $4 million in debt, with the athletic department being responsible for 50 percent of that number. The school has worked hard to trim, tighten the purse strings, work the alumni for donations to reduce the deficit. The size of debt has decreased, but has not been eliminated. The school is not going to pay Patsos $750K or $1 million -- not sure if he is owed 2 or 3 years at$375K - to walk away and then pony up to pay another coach. That would increase the debt beyond what if was two years ago.
The only way Patsos does not come back is if he finds another job; a deep-pocket alum with a palatial estate overlooking the Pacific in Malibu writes a large check or Patsos has done something stupid, ala Addessa or Pitino, and they can him for cause.
D'Argenio has done a good job at raising money to help improve on campus athletic facilities. Of course, that big donation from the Turchii family was a blessing. But as far as hiring is concerned, he is terrible. The entire athletic program under his watch has a winning percentage of what? Maybe .425, perhaps a bit higher. The women's hoops program has been a dumpster fire for more than 15 years. In all likelihood Gina would still be here with 15-14 and 14-15 records, but they couldn't keep her here for losing and being mediocre when they wanted to run off Mitch for his three horrendous seasons. Keeping Gina and firing Mitch could have led to potential lawsuits for discrimination. The men's program run of not making the NCAA tournament will more than likely reach 10 seasons before a new coach is hired.
The athletic program needs new and fresh young blood to get it out of its funk. Mike Broeker at Marquette and Tony Weaver are two who work in the profession with ties to Siena. There are also plenty of young, current assistant ADs at Big East and A-10 schools who would be willing to come work at Siena for a few years, build a successful program and head for a bigger payday. Let a new AD make the next basketball hire. D'Argenio has lived off Hewitt and McCaffrey for too long, and in all honestly, both of those came out of a search committee led by Dinny Cahill after D'Argenio made 'Champagne' Bob Beyer his first major hire. We all know how that worked out. D'Argenio hired his former roommate to replace Mike Deane. Beyer was a disaster as a head coach. He was rightly dismissed, but more people in the athletic dept. should have been shown the door because of all the off-court shenanigans by the men's staff that was swept under the rug or people running the program looked the other way. The school was lucky all the salacious and scandalous details never made it into the media.
Everyone seems to have their favorite as to replace Patsos as head coach from Rick Pitino to Travis Steele, etc. Siena is going to have to do its homework on this one, especially with potential fallout from the Adidas/Sean Miller scandal that is being investigated by the FBI. This isn't the incompetent NCAA running the investigation. It's the Feds. Some big-time coaches will fall, opening up plenty of coveted jobs on the major and mid-major level.. A potential one-year-and-done coach is something Siena does not need right now. It needs someone who can build a program and that will take at least three years to accomplish considering where the men's program sits right now -- at the bottom of the MAAC.
Personally, I would think outside the box on this one. My favorite would be Kevin Boyle. A Northeast guy who has shown he can recruit, coach, has major connections with AAU, is known as a coach who develops talent and wins wherever he goes. A bigger pipe dream is he hires old-man Hurley as an assistant. You would get games with Arizona State and Rhode Island each season, and perhaps a landing spot for several D-1 transfers. That coaching staff would have two Northeast guys with incredible reputations. The recruiting footprint would expand past a small circle in the Baltimore area.
And finally, get a new sneaker contract. Most of the top AAU programs wear Nike or Adidas. It does make a difference in recruiting. The program's current contract and roster of players with limited potential tells us that.
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Post by MTS on Mar 9, 2018 14:06:54 GMT -5
I was told two years ago Siena was $4 million in debt, with the athletic department being responsible for 50 percent of that number. The school has worked hard to trim, tighten the purse strings, work the alumni for donations to reduce the deficit. The size of debt has decreased, but has not been eliminated. The school is not going to pay Patsos $750K or $1 million -- not sure if he is owed 2 or 3 years at$375K - to walk away and then pony up to pay another coach. That would increase the debt beyond what if was two years ago. The only way Patsos does not come back is if he finds another job; a deep-pocket alum with a palatial estate overlooking the Pacific in Malibu writes a large check or Patsos has done something stupid, ala Addessa or Pitino, and they can him for cause. D'Argenio has done a good job at raising money to help improve on campus athletic facilities. Of course, that big donation from the Turchii family was a blessing. But as far as hiring is concerned, he is terrible. The entire athletic program under his watch has a winning percentage of what? Maybe .425, perhaps a bit higher. The women's hoops program has been a dumpster fire for more than 15 years. In all likelihood Gina would still be here with 15-14 and 14-15 records, but they couldn't keep her here for losing and being mediocre when they wanted to run off Mitch for his three horrendous seasons. Keeping Gina and firing Mitch could have led to potential lawsuits for discrimination. The men's program run of not making the NCAA tournament will more than likely reach 10 seasons before a new coach is hired. The athletic program needs new and fresh young blood to get it out of its funk. Mike Broeker at Marquette and Tony Weaver are two who work in the profession with ties to Siena. There are also plenty of young, current assistant ADs at Big East and A-10 schools who would be willing to come work at Siena for a few years, build a successful program and head for a bigger payday. Let a new AD make the next basketball hire. D'Argenio has lived off Hewitt and McCaffrey for too long, and in all honestly, both of those came out of a search committee led by Dinny Cahill after D'Argenio made 'Champagne' Bob Beyer his first major hire. We all know how that worked out. D'Argenio hired his former roommate to replace Mike Deane. Beyer was a disaster as a head coach. He was rightly dismissed, but more people in the athletic dept. should have been shown the door because of all the off-court shenanigans by the men's staff that was swept under the rug or people running the program looked the other way. The school was lucky all the salacious and scandalous details never made it into the media. Everyone seems to have their favorite as to replace Patsos as head coach from Rick Pitino to Travis Steele, etc. Siena is going to have to do its homework on this one, especially with potential fallout from the Adidas/Sean Miller scandal that is being investigated by the FBI. This isn't the incompetent NCAA running the investigation. It's the Feds. Some big-time coaches will fall, opening up plenty of coveted jobs on the major and mid-major level.. A potential one-year-and-done coach is something Siena does not need right now. It needs someone who can build a program and that will take at least three years to accomplish considering where the men's program sits right now -- at the bottom of the MAAC. Personally, I would think outside the box on this one. My favorite would be Kevin Boyle. A Northeast guy who has shown he can recruit, coach, has major connections with AAU, is known as a coach who develops talent and wins wherever he goes. A bigger pipe dream is he hires old-man Hurley as an assistant. You would get games with Arizona State and Rhode Island each season, and perhaps a landing spot for several D-1 transfers. That coaching staff would have two Northeast guys with incredible reputations. The recruiting footprint would expand past a small circle in the Baltimore area. And finally, get a new sneaker contract. Most of the top AAU programs wear Nike or Adidas. It does make a difference in recruiting. The program's current contract and roster of players with limited potential tells us that. First post huh...While you raise some good points appropriate handle!
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Post by blockhead43 on Mar 9, 2018 14:28:52 GMT -5
First post, but a season-ticket holder since Kirsch was elevating the program and playing home games in the Armory. I will not renew next year because I will spend most of the winter in Florida. I've monitored this board for years, but recently decided to post.
I was thinking outside of the box. What do you have other than Patsos is going to be fired this week and every week between now and 2019?
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boogie
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Post by boogie on Mar 9, 2018 14:36:12 GMT -5
First post, but a season-ticket holder since Kirsch was elevating the program and playing home games in the Armory. I will not renew next year because I will spend most of the winter in Florida. I've monitored this board for years, but recently decided to post. I was thinking outside of the box. What do you have other than Patsos is going to be fired this week and every week between now and 2019? I haven't posted on this board a lot in the last few years, but I have spoken to several people like you at games and being out and about, long times fans, season ticket holders for years, sick of the nonsense. Very sad with the history you have with the program.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 9, 2018 15:23:53 GMT -5
I haven’t read the post but I saw the part about the sneakers. No matter what happens I agree the sneakers have to be changed. Lots of slipping going on out there and I’m concerned some of the injuries are as a result too.
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Mar 9, 2018 19:50:42 GMT -5
I was told two years ago Siena was $4 million in debt, with the athletic department being responsible for 50 percent of that number. The school has worked hard to trim, tighten the purse strings, work the alumni for donations to reduce the deficit. The size of debt has decreased, but has not been eliminated. The school is not going to pay Patsos $750K or $1 million -- not sure if he is owed 2 or 3 years at$375K - to walk away and then pony up to pay another coach. That would increase the debt beyond what if was two years ago. The only way Patsos does not come back is if he finds another job; a deep-pocket alum with a palatial estate overlooking the Pacific in Malibu writes a large check or Patsos has done something stupid, ala Addessa or Pitino, and they can him for cause. D'Argenio has done a good job at raising money to help improve on campus athletic facilities. Of course, that big donation from the Turchii family was a blessing. But as far as hiring is concerned, he is terrible. The entire athletic program under his watch has a winning percentage of what? Maybe .425, perhaps a bit higher. The women's hoops program has been a dumpster fire for more than 15 years. In all likelihood Gina would still be here with 15-14 and 14-15 records, but they couldn't keep her here for losing and being mediocre when they wanted to run off Mitch for his three horrendous seasons. Keeping Gina and firing Mitch could have led to potential lawsuits for discrimination. The men's program run of not making the NCAA tournament will more than likely reach 10 seasons before a new coach is hired. The athletic program needs new and fresh young blood to get it out of its funk. Mike Broeker at Marquette and Tony Weaver are two who work in the profession with ties to Siena. There are also plenty of young, current assistant ADs at Big East and A-10 schools who would be willing to come work at Siena for a few years, build a successful program and head for a bigger payday. Let a new AD make the next basketball hire. D'Argenio has lived off Hewitt and McCaffrey for too long, and in all honestly, both of those came out of a search committee led by Dinny Cahill after D'Argenio made 'Champagne' Bob Beyer his first major hire. We all know how that worked out. D'Argenio hired his former roommate to replace Mike Deane. Beyer was a disaster as a head coach. He was rightly dismissed, but more people in the athletic dept. should have been shown the door because of all the off-court shenanigans by the men's staff that was swept under the rug or people running the program looked the other way. The school was lucky all the salacious and scandalous details never made it into the media. Everyone seems to have their favorite as to replace Patsos as head coach from Rick Pitino to Travis Steele, etc. Siena is going to have to do its homework on this one, especially with potential fallout from the Adidas/Sean Miller scandal that is being investigated by the FBI. This isn't the incompetent NCAA running the investigation. It's the Feds. Some big-time coaches will fall, opening up plenty of coveted jobs on the major and mid-major level.. A potential one-year-and-done coach is something Siena does not need right now. It needs someone who can build a program and that will take at least three years to accomplish considering where the men's program sits right now -- at the bottom of the MAAC. Personally, I would think outside the box on this one. My favorite would be Kevin Boyle. A Northeast guy who has shown he can recruit, coach, has major connections with AAU, is known as a coach who develops talent and wins wherever he goes. A bigger pipe dream is he hires old-man Hurley as an assistant. You would get games with Arizona State and Rhode Island each season, and perhaps a landing spot for several D-1 transfers. That coaching staff would have two Northeast guys with incredible reputations. The recruiting footprint would expand past a small circle in the Baltimore area. And finally, get a new sneaker contract. Most of the top AAU programs wear Nike or Adidas. It does make a difference in recruiting. The program's current contract and roster of players with limited potential tells us that. First post huh...While you raise some good points appropriate handle! Very well done first post. Agree totally. Shoe contract definitely should be changed along with AD. far as debt I also was told the school had a challenge operationally and made most employees take a 10% cut for a year. So I was told. Like any business you acquire fat and and with the fat come complancecy and higher than average compensation. The school doesn’t have a high turnover rate, and what is needed is a cleaning out. Hopefully the BOT and Bro Ed take up the challenge. Far as JP, he was a bad hire, along its the other bad hires by Darg. JP isn’t dumb, not a great coach has a good agent. I am sure he sees the handwriting and if smart will negotiate a package. If he goes out with a cloud over the deal he may again never coach or work in B.B. Hopefully Siena can close this horrible chapter when he returns.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 19:56:45 GMT -5
Bottom line, So-so has a place in D1 hoop, just NOT AT SIENA - he squandered the best upgrade opportunity that could be given to a fellow MAAC coach - he knew all of the pluses when he came to SmallBany and ate Italian while hoping for Mitch's job was dessert, and now he can eat crow for just coasting for 5 painful years - no sympathy at all, Zip, Zero, Nada - he can't be gone soon enough...
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Mar 9, 2018 19:59:37 GMT -5
Boyle is a HS coach in Florida right now. Thing with him is he's probably offered top asustsnt money at a lot of BCS schools, which could probably exceed $750K
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Mar 9, 2018 20:25:23 GMT -5
I don't really know what's going on at Siena.And i really don't care but in actuality i do care.Whenever what's going on ends there won't be any winners.Oh yeah some on here my be happy and some disappointed.But the losers will be the players involved in this mess.And again some of you won't give a dang because most of them you didn't want or felt warranted to wear a uniform from Siena.But I'm not going to argue or go back and forth with anyone on that.Read your post remember the AINTS kids who play for your school being called AINTS.Great respect huh for 18 -22young man representing your school /alma mater.Never hearing a word of them being bad young man off the court or in the class room.I've been critical of the players but never to a point where i felt that i should demean them where they can't play in a certain division of basketball.Everyone has a different meaning of what TALENT is and that's there freedom.But like i said there won't be any winners just another hurdle in life to get thru.I wish the best for these players in this time of adult b/s.Be strong young man keep working hard no matter what happens.Who knows what's ahead but you are SIENA SAINTS.JMO nothing against anyone.
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Mar 9, 2018 20:33:15 GMT -5
I think most people have been supportive of the kids. But don’t lose sight that these young men are getting paid to play. That’s the reality. With that reality comes expectations, like it or not.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Mar 9, 2018 20:45:18 GMT -5
I think most people have been supportive of the kids. But don’t lose sight that these young men are getting paid to play. That’s the reality. With that reality comes expectations, like it or not. While that may be true many other sports have the same scholarship situations and aren’t subject to the same scrutiny on a low level d1 team. So from that standpoint it’s a pretty bad deal for them.
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