gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 14, 2017 6:51:19 GMT -5
All papis post tells me is it’s really important to have a good coach — winning is not “luck”. The championships are just an indicator of success, there have been many other great seasons of Siena basketball thatvdidnt result in a championship, but that involves winning non conference games.
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glen
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Post by glen on Dec 14, 2017 6:55:16 GMT -5
So why is it Mitch got 2 raises before he was let go?!?!? Again, who is the imbecile putting these contracts together. Mitch should have been canned after season 1. Not only was he not fired, he gets a raise the for each of the next 2 seasons!?!? AYFKM?
Why is Jimmy making Fran type of money? That's just F*cking insanse. Whoever is putting these contracts together needs to be sued for total incompetence. Wow. Simply stunning level of incompetence across the board.
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Post by SaintsFan on Dec 14, 2017 7:03:30 GMT -5
In 41 years in division 1 Siena has won 6 conference tournaments and 8 regular season titles. The bulk of those coming from two coaches Deane and the beloved Fran almost 20 years apart. what does that to do with Gorvy's post? Drop the pay to what other MAAC coaches that lose are paid-- and if need be move back to ARC - this longest strech of losing basketball Siena has gone thru since return to D1 in late 70's this. Siena should really think about further renovations back on campus and move back to retain the revenue. It is obvious that the school realizes that they are actually at the level they belong. The money has to be greater back on campus. Let the big boys like UA handle the burden of being a regional power. Siena can settle back in to obscurity.
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gorvy
Associate Head Coach
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Post by gorvy on Dec 14, 2017 7:06:37 GMT -5
So why is it Mitch got 2 raises before he was let go?!?!? Again, who is the imbecile putting these contracts together. Mitch should have been canned after season 1. Not only was he not fired, he gets a raise the for each of the next 2 seasons!?!? AYFKM? Why is Jimmy making Fran type of money? That's just F*cking insanse. Whoever is putting these contracts together needs to be sued for total incompetence. Wow. Simply stunning level of incompetence across the board. I hear you and am not defending anyone, but I should clarify that since it includes benefits costs could have gone up without being under control of the college. Also Siena’s fiscal year ends may 31 so there are timing differences.
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Post by sienafanallyearlong2 on Dec 14, 2017 11:01:24 GMT -5
Just crazy how inept this administeation is at putting together good contracts for all involved, but certainly the schools best interests first.
Here's an idea.
"All" Mid Majors but certainly this mid major should go the route of the old LA Dodgers - Tommy Lasorda Contracts.
Play hardball. You build the brand and they will come.
Whether its year one or year twenty one, make all HC Contracts "Annual Contracts".
Just like they are with scholarships all being one year scholarships I believe it is?
Make the contracts worthy enough for any aspiring current Asst Coach at a Power Conference School, or a successful but young HC at the mid major level school, (who both are aspiring to be a HC "down the road" at a big time Power Conference School) to want to take the risk and jump at the opportunity.
They will be paid enough to become the HC at what "could be once again", a high profile mid major job with a great opportunity to be relevant again on a regional and national basis.
A job with a history of many of their HC's going on to Power Conference opportunities (Deane, Hewitt, Orr, McCaffrey).
For many young coaches, taking that risk of being let go after any given year while at the same time being given the opportunity as a young guy to do financially well for his family would be an opportunit that alot of qualified candidates would jump at.
Make the contract so if they are successful, every year the annual contract gets better based on incentives being reached and but not about its base salary jumping up to the moon because of one success like Patsos had with the CBI Tournament.
It will immediately put an end to these stupid buyouts that go on all across the country and are bankrupting mid major programs like Siena's.
With giving out multiple year contracts at the mid major level, you either payout and hope you get a better hire on board the next time or you keep the current hire doing a bad job like Mitch and Jimmy have done and let your brand and the program fall apart in front of your eyes.
This is especially true when you have two bad hires in a row like we have had.
The way its set up now, it certainly will put a great deal of pressure on the next hire being a good choice.
Why not try something like the answer below.
It would not bankrupt the school and would provide a very competitive base along with many opportunities to make alot more money on the back end of the contract if you are successful, where the school would additionally win with the exposure that they would get.
I.E. - Annual Contract (very competitive "performance" based incentives added on):
$350k Base
Incentive's:
$25k - MAAC 7-2 Record or Better at Home $25k - MAAC Regular Season Top 3 $25k - MAAC Regular Season Championship $25k - MAAC Final $25k- Invite to any Post Season Tourn. $50k - NCAA Tournament Invite $75k - NCAA Tournament Win $200k- Sweet 16 or beyond attainment --------------------------------------- $800k- Total Compensation Package (if all attainments are reached)
Base Increases:
Every year you are there - $25k Bump This Bump max'es out after 4 yrs. NCAA Tournament Appearance - $25k Bump This Bump max'es out after 4 appearances. -----------------------------------------
That's it. No more bumps. We will lose them anyway if they are successful.
In all likliehood, we will probably never get to this point in paying them a $550k base with the possibility of another $450k in performance based incentives for a total max out compensation package of $1 million.
But even if we did, it would mean the program has been flourishing for a number of years and that 1 million payout will be a compensation that is both well deserved for the coach and worthy enough for the school to payout.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Dec 14, 2017 11:16:48 GMT -5
Yeah, there’s absolutely no way a coach is taking a 1 year contract at the start of a rebuild and hoping the School likes him enough to keep him. I’m all for incentive-laden comtracts, but it’s bordering on ludicrous that anyone would take that deal and potentially be out of a job in a year with no guaranteed future money.
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Post by sienafanallyearlong2 on Dec 14, 2017 12:07:25 GMT -5
Your absolutely wrong on that point.
There are just so many HC job openings in any given year.
Are you telling me that an aspiring HC opportunity at what over the years (yes, I know, not the last 8) has been a top notch mid major program (much beyond wins and losses...i.e. - facility, fan base, local media exposure, easy access to northeast talent base, etc...) with a great level of respect given to it in coaching circles, would not jump at this opportunity?
An opportunity to not only be a HC on their way up the path to coaching stardom, which every Asst HC at a Power Conference School believe's they can be the next Coach K, but at a stop where at the very worse they are making $350k, with an opportunity in year one to earn $800k?
I think your crazy wrong on this one.
You have to remember that all these guys think they are the best. Until proven wrong, there is no shortage of confidence at the Power Conference Asst Coach level that not only could they be a HC, but that they could be a successful HC.
With such a competitive base such as $350k, it would be seen as a challenge by many, and for all those that would pass on such an opportunity because of it being an annual contract vs. being a multi year contract, there will be 5 other qualified candidates that would jump at this opportunity.
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glen
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Post by glen on Dec 14, 2017 12:19:09 GMT -5
Your absolutely wrong on that point. There are just so many HC job openings in any given year. Are you telling me that an aspiring HC opportunity at what over the years (yes, I know, not the last 8) has been a top notch mid major program (much beyond wins and losses...i.e. - facility, fan base, local media exposure, easy access to northeast talent base, etc...) with a great level of respect given to it in coaching circles, would not jump at this opportunity? An opportunity to not only be a HC on their way up the path to coaching stardom, which every Asst HC at a Power Conference School believe's they can be the next Coach K, but at a stop where at the very worse they are making $350k, with an opportunity in year one to earn $800k? I think your crazy wrong on this one. You have to remember that all these guys think they are the best. Until proven wrong, there is no shortage of confidence at the Power Conference Asst Coach level that not only could they be a HC, but that they could be a successful HC. With such a competitive base such as $350k, it would be seen as a challenge by many, and for all those that would pass on such an opportunity because of it being an annual contract vs. being a multi year contract, there will be 5 other qualified candidates that would jump at this opportunity. SFAYL2 - EXACTLY. I love what you've proposed...want an AD job? This is a buyers market where the school is the buyer. You have few openings on any given year and those spots are generally only open March - May. Let's say a BCS-level assistant takes what turns into a 1 year job at Siena. That guy would be picked up as an assistant again in a second. Any coach with a sh!t is going to jump at a D1 HC position. My take - if they're focused on the buyout then that's not the guy I want. Also, I think it would be riskier in the above scenario to be picking up a post-Fran team than a post-Mitch team.
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Post by goldsaint17 on Dec 14, 2017 12:42:10 GMT -5
Your absolutely wrong on that point. There are just so many HC job openings in any given year. Are you telling me that an aspiring HC opportunity at what over the years (yes, I know, not the last 8) has been a top notch mid major program (much beyond wins and losses...i.e. - facility, fan base, local media exposure, easy access to northeast talent base, etc...) with a great level of respect given to it in coaching circles, would not jump at this opportunity? An opportunity to not only be a HC on their way up the path to coaching stardom, which every Asst HC at a Power Conference School believe's they can be the next Coach K, but at a stop where at the very worse they are making $350k, with an opportunity in year one to earn $800k? I think your crazy wrong on this one. You have to remember that all these guys think they are the best. Until proven wrong, there is no shortage of confidence at the Power Conference Asst Coach level that not only could they be a HC, but that they could be a successful HC. With such a competitive base such as $350k, it would be seen as a challenge by many, and for all those that would pass on such an opportunity because of it being an annual contract vs. being a multi year contract, there will be 5 other qualified candidates that would jump at this opportunity. Ok, maybe you land a good assistant (not convinced of that because the good ones will wait out the 5 year guaranteed deal like what Quinnipiac just gave Dunleavy). No chance you could grab a John Becker or a Nathan Davis (established winner at D1 level) who will leave all his job security for a 1 year pact that essentially could leave them jobless without a buyout in 2-3 years. The biggest reason why coaches almost never coach in the final year of their contract is that it becomes impossible to recruit and sit in the living room of a family and tell them with confidence that you’ll be there in 4 years when their son graduates. You are right that a lot of coaches will jump at the opportunity to coach at Siena, but not with ZERO security other than an AD saying “we’ll give you time”. They’ll get their 300-350k base salary with some incentives (like normal) and get raises/extensions when they make NCAA Tournaments.
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Post by MTS on Dec 14, 2017 12:50:30 GMT -5
Yeah, there’s absolutely no way a coach is taking a 1 year contract at the start of a rebuild and hoping the School likes him enough to keep him. I’m all for incentive-laden comtracts, but it’s bordering on ludicrous that anyone would take that deal and potentially be out of a job in a year with no guaranteed future money. You're right any new hire is going to get a 5 year guaranteed contract, perhaps 4 year if the coach has never been a HC at the D1 level. Mitch got 4 years but he had no options and wanted to be a HC and did not want to go to Iowa. Siena should have given him 2 years and 2 year school option. It was a very unique situation. I had no problem when they gave Jimmy 5 year guaranteed contract - pretty much you have to signing a sitting head coach at another school. The problem was an extension after the CBI (when he had four years left) and another two year extension after going 21-13 when he had three years left. Think about it Siena did not even extend Fran after he beat Vanderbilt! They waited until after he beat Ohio State. Fran even coached his first year without a contract but with simply a memorandum of understanding if people can remember back. That's why he was flirting with Penn after year one. I really question who is making these decisions at Siena.
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Dec 14, 2017 13:13:51 GMT -5
Your absolutely wrong on that point. There are just so many HC job openings in any given year. Are you telling me that an aspiring HC opportunity at what over the years (yes, I know, not the last 8) has been a top notch mid major program (much beyond wins and losses...i.e. - facility, fan base, local media exposure, easy access to northeast talent base, etc...) with a great level of respect given to it in coaching circles, would not jump at this opportunity? An opportunity to not only be a HC on their way up the path to coaching stardom, which every Asst HC at a Power Conference School believe's they can be the next Coach K, but at a stop where at the very worse they are making $350k, with an opportunity in year one to earn $800k? I think your crazy wrong on this one. You have to remember that all these guys think they are the best. Until proven wrong, there is no shortage of confidence at the Power Conference Asst Coach level that not only could they be a HC, but that they could be a successful HC. With such a competitive base such as $350k, it would be seen as a challenge by many, and for all those that would pass on such an opportunity because of it being an annual contract vs. being a multi year contract, there will be 5 other qualified candidates that would jump at this opportunity. Not one HC in D1 has anything close to what you recommend here, so this is never happening. You aren't getting a sitting head coach with that (uproot lives of him, his family, all that goes with that, for a potential one year stint, or less... nope) and power 5 assistants are making some real good coin now, so again, the security of a job and consistent income vs a one and done scenario, not many would jump at that.... also, Siena is and never would pay a HC $800K no matter what kickers he achieved throughout the year.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 14, 2017 13:20:23 GMT -5
What this list tells me is that Rex is grossly overpaid.
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$cott
Assistant Coach
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Post by $cott on Dec 14, 2017 14:10:50 GMT -5
So why is it Mitch got 2 raises before he was let go?!?!? Again, who is the imbecile putting these contracts together. Mitch should have been canned after season 1. Not only was he not fired, he gets a raise the for each of the next 2 seasons!?!? AYFKM? Why is Jimmy making Fran type of money? That's just F*cking insanse. Whoever is putting these contracts together needs to be sued for total incompetence. Wow. Simply stunning level of incompetence across the board. Looks like Mitch's contract was effectively 4 years at $300k but he agreed to take on a lesser salary in the first year while they were still paying Fran.
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Dec 14, 2017 14:19:56 GMT -5
So why is it Mitch got 2 raises before he was let go?!?!? Again, who is the imbecile putting these contracts together. Mitch should have been canned after season 1. Not only was he not fired, he gets a raise the for each of the next 2 seasons!?!? AYFKM? Why is Jimmy making Fran type of money? That's just F*cking insanse. Whoever is putting these contracts together needs to be sued for total incompetence. Wow. Simply stunning level of incompetence across the board. Looks like Mitch's contract was effectively 4 years at $300k but he agreed to take on a lesser salary in the first year while they were still paying Fran. Why would they have been paying Fran after he left?
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Dec 14, 2017 14:21:07 GMT -5
Yeah, there’s absolutely no way a coach is taking a 1 year contract at the start of a rebuild and hoping the School likes him enough to keep him. I’m all for incentive-laden comtracts, but it’s bordering on ludicrous that anyone would take that deal and potentially be out of a job in a year with no guaranteed future money. You're right any new hire is going to get a 5 year guaranteed contract, perhaps 4 year if the coach has never been a HC at the D1 level. Mitch got 4 years but he had no options and wanted to be a HC and did not want to go to Iowa. Siena should have given him 2 years and 2 year school option. It was a very unique situation. I had no problem when they gave Jimmy 5 year guaranteed contract - pretty much you have to signing a sitting head coach at another school. The problem was an extension after the CBI (when he had four years left) and another two year extension after going 21-13 when he had three years left. Think about it Siena did not even extend Fran after he beat Vanderbilt! They waited until after he beat Ohio State. Fran even coached his first year without a contract but with simply a memorandum of understanding if people can remember back. That's why he was flirting with Penn after year one. I really question who is making these decisions at Siena. They might not have renegotiated his deal but I am pretty sure he had a rolling 4 or 5 year contract. So, he was getting the same or similar money but the contract always extended 4 years out.
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