ltf
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Post by ltf on Jul 30, 2017 13:32:30 GMT -5
"...to build a mid-major program you need some time...". Five years should be enough time!
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Jul 30, 2017 13:40:12 GMT -5
Siena has no issues taking qualified transfers. It's jucos they shun because those kids usually take some B.S. courses at those schools and thus have credits that Siena will never accept. Iona's edge is that they'll admit anyone, no matter how questionable their academic or behavioral history. Siena has never gone down that road and never will. You non-grads have to grasp the Siena culture. It's not a win at all costs type of school. You gotta win the right way here. And you can just as Fran, Hewitt, and Deane before them did. The transfer rate is 20X higher than it was 20 years ago, and the 5th year transfer rule kills schools like us that lack graduate programs. It's a different game then when Deane & Hewitt coached. It's even gone crazy in the 7-8 years Fran has been gone. No doubt times have changed - but Siena hasn't. And probably never will. They'd rather drop to division 2 than compromise their standards. They did just that once before. So better get used to the fact that Siena won't be using Iona's recruiting tactics anytime soon. Adding a Grad program is probably going to happen at some point though. I was talking to the president about that last year. So eventually you'll have access to those 5th year players at least!
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Post by Tony on Jul 30, 2017 16:51:30 GMT -5
Recruiting is getting harder for some schools like mid majors but some of it is evaluation and luck. We complain about kids with no offers being recruited then when the ones we want start getting higher offers we complain about the coaches not working hard enough.Of the class we have coming that i know of only Penn had no offers. But if you count that he never finished his post grad year and if you don't get him to commit early he may not be here.I think to build a mid major program you need some time depending on the program when you got there.Of the 4 freshman you have coming in you have 2 possible starters and 2 10minutes contributors well see but that's a good start Really Manny Camper- no other offers. Penn no other offers , Christen Bentley no other offers. Jordan Horn- 2 other very low major offers. Prince Oduro- had plenty of interest, had a poor Summer on AAU circuit last season and the offers dried up. As for starters ;- we lost 4 starters and have 1 player returning that averaged more than 4ppg in D1- so somebody has to start Last season Jimmy and staff swung and missed on most of their primary targets – do the names Baily Patella, Skyler Nash, Terry Nolan Jr ring a bell—those are just a few names off the top of my head Jimmy swung and missed with Listen I hope the freshmen work out well, but make no mistake about it, considering we had 4 seniors graduating and playing time available – on paper a very “low” major recruiting class
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 17:08:35 GMT -5
Recruiting "luck" is directly proportional to how hard your "recruiters" work to see as many kids as possible and their experience/skill at recognizing talent, potential for growth and how that kid will fit with the team he will join. Have to remind folks that Fran had luck and more importantly a very talented staff and he and his staff worked their cajones off for Siena. Lest you forget - his last (and potentially his best) at Siena was Melsahn Basabe who he recruited for Siena and took to Iowa as a four year starter. A Big player recruited with what used to be pretty damn good Siena resources, not to mention hard consistent work.
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Jul 30, 2017 17:11:44 GMT -5
So you're saying this class is a low major class in your opinion just because of the offers they didn't get or never had a chance to get.Oh my fault all these coaches hit it with there recruits in mid majors.Remember the people ranking these kids don't even see them cause there to busy running after the same kids.I do believe Otto Porter didn't even play aau known max contract.I don't know why these kids chose other schools and if you do let us know why cause it always the coaches fault not kids just not choosing Siena.We haven't even given this team a chance to perform but all we keep doing is bashing them on what offers they didn't get man I'm glad these kids have supporters like some on the board.wtf
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Jul 30, 2017 17:17:11 GMT -5
People talk about supporting the team but bash them in a way so when things go good or expectations go better then expected don't be positive just stay being negative
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Post by Tony on Jul 30, 2017 17:31:04 GMT -5
So you're saying this class is a low major class in your opinion just because of the offers they didn't get or never had a chance to get.Oh my fault all these coaches hit it with there recruits in mid majors.Remember the people ranking these kids don't even see them cause there to busy running after the same kids.I do believe Otto Porter didn't even play aau known max contract.I don't know why these kids chose other schools and if you do let us know why cause it always the coaches fault not kids just not choosing Siena.We haven't even given this team a chance to perform but all we keep doing is bashing them on what offers they didn't get man I'm glad these kids have supporters like some on the board.wtf Sorry if the truth upsets you. If I made a mistake on some of the offers for these kids please feel free to correct the "record" Forget the rankings- the best talent evaluators are other D1 coaches. The fact the majority of the incoming class had no other D1 offers should tell you something. Listen I like Oduro- although freshmen at MAAC level usually take time. I do think had Penn finished the year at Prep he would have had offers. Horn can play and shoot- question is can he get his shot off vs D1 level competition and can he defend guards, most other mid major coaches did not think he could. I'm not trying to bad mouth the incoming recruits- but I'm not going to blow smoke on how "good" this class is. Way too many swings and misses by this staff the last few years- and its not like he is losing kids to A10 and Big East- Jimmy is losing to AE teams, and other low majors. Maybe a few of the incoming kids can play- point is with 4 seniors graduating this was time Jimmy and the staff had to hit home runs on recruiting trail- instead they swung and missed- I suggest you go back thru your "notes" on who Siena was recruiting last summer, who came in for official visits and how it worked out. And yeah I get no coach signs all kids that come in on official visits. It one thing to be a supporter and hope for best on recruits- it's entirely another to be blowing smoke about the incoming recruits -
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Post by goldsaint17 on Jul 30, 2017 17:32:16 GMT -5
Recruiting is getting harder for some schools like mid majors but some of it is evaluation and luck. We complain about kids with no offers being recruited then when the ones we want start getting higher offers we complain about the coaches not working hard enough.Of the class we have coming that i know of only Penn had no offers. But if you count that he never finished his post grad year and if you don't get him to commit early he may not be here.I think to build a mid major program you need some time depending on the program when you got there.Of the 4 freshman you have coming in you have 2 possible starters and 2 10minutes contributors well see but that's a good start Really Manny Camper- no other offers. Penn no other offers , Christen Bentley no other offers. Jordan Horn- 2 other very low major offers. Prince Oduro- had plenty of interest, had a poor Summer on AAU circuit last season and the offers dried up. As for starters ;- we lost 4 starters and have 1 player returning that averaged more than 4ppg in D1- so somebody has to start Last season Jimmy and staff swung and missed on most of their primary targets – do the names Baily Patella, Skyler Nash, Terry Nolan Jr ring a bell—those are just a few names off the top of my head Jimmy swung and missed with Listen I hope the freshmen work out well, but make no mistake about it, considering we had 4 seniors graduating and playing time available – on paper a very “low” major recruiting class Oduro had 18 other D1 offers I believe. While some did, most of those hadn't "dried up" despite that bad summer for Canada Elite. Horn's recruiting was stunted Big-time by injuries during the summer before his senior year. Penn may (and likely would) have had other offers had he waited. Bentley and Camper are lottery tickets, 2 outstanding athletes with some skill who we'll try to develop into good MAAC players. I can tell you this: in all likelihood Horn, Penn, and Oduro would be at programs above Siena's level in terms of conference had they not been signed when they did. If each had played out their entire final high school season, they'd have better offers. Look at the guy ranked 1 ahead of Horn in the recruiting rankings in Minnesota, Tywhon Pickford. He was also hurt in his Junior summer, but played out his senior year and went to Northern Iowa after getting interest late from Michigan State. Some on this board are incapable of looking past the number of offers a player had to see if a player will be good or not. We've seen time and time again that many (if not most) good MAAC players weren't 3-star, highly-recruited players. When I evaluate incoming players, I try to watch as much video as I can, hopefully full games. Horn and Oduro both looked like good MAAC recruits in the video I've seen. I also speak to people inside the program to see how the guys look once they get on campus. From what I've been told, the freshmen look good and are ready to compete at the MAAC level.
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Post by Tony on Jul 30, 2017 17:43:06 GMT -5
Hey will shall see if they are above Siena's level if they are Jimmy should have a winning season and save his job- if not he should be fired. And really Freshmen look good and ready to compete at MAAC level-- what do you think staff is going to say we struck out?
Let’s see Jimmy has been here 4 years do the names Maurice White, Michael Wolfe, Patrick Cole, Jimmy Paige, Cam Gottfried, Willem Brandwijk, Kenny Wormley, Kinnon Larose Sound familiar- I won’t get into Evan Fisher, Kadeem Smithen. So lets not talk like this staff has a very high “hit” rate. They have struggled on recruiting trail. Their hit percentage is very small for a D1 staff- and if this year's class cant play, it will probably cost Jimmy his job
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Post by Tony on Jul 30, 2017 17:49:16 GMT -5
Recruiting "luck" is directly proportional to how hard your "recruiters" work to see as many kids as possible and their experience/skill at recognizing talent, potential for growth and how that kid will fit with the team he will join. Have to remind folks that Fran had luck and more importantly a very talented staff and he and his staff worked their cajones off for Siena. Lest you forget - his last (and potentially his best) at Siena was Melsahn Basabe who he recruited for Siena and took to Iowa as a four year starter. A Big player recruited with what used to be pretty damn good Siena resources, not to mention hard consistent work. Good post- isnt it funny the harder you work on recruiting trail the more luck you seem to have. Plus getting to know the kids on recruiting trail better chance to weed out kids that won't fit your program
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Post by Tony on Jul 30, 2017 17:55:54 GMT -5
Really Manny Camper- no other offers. Penn no other offers , Christen Bentley no other offers. Jordan Horn- 2 other very low major offers. Prince Oduro- had plenty of interest, had a poor Summer on AAU circuit last season and the offers dried up. As for starters ;- we lost 4 starters and have 1 player returning that averaged more than 4ppg in D1- so somebody has to start Last season Jimmy and staff swung and missed on most of their primary targets – do the names Baily Patella, Skyler Nash, Terry Nolan Jr ring a bell—those are just a few names off the top of my head Jimmy swung and missed with Listen I hope the freshmen work out well, but make no mistake about it, considering we had 4 seniors graduating and playing time available – on paper a very “low” major recruiting class Oduro had 18 other D1 offers I believe. While some did, most of those hadn't "dried up" despite that bad summer for Canada Elite. Horn's recruiting was stunted Big-time by injuries during the summer before his senior year. Penn may (and likely would) have had other offers had he waited. Bentley and Camper are lottery tickets, 2 outstanding athletes with some skill who we'll try to develop into good MAAC players. I can tell you this: in all likelihood Horn, Penn, and Oduro would be at programs above Siena's level in terms of conference had they not been signed when they did. If each had played out their entire final high school season, they'd have better offers. Look at the guy ranked 1 ahead of Horn in the recruiting rankings in Minnesota, Tywhon Pickford. He was also hurt in his Junior summer, but played out his senior year and went to Northern Iowa after getting interest late from Michigan State. Some on this board are incapable of looking past the number of offers a player had to see if a player will be good or not. We've seen time and time again that many (if not most) good MAAC players weren't 3-star, highly-recruited players. When I evaluate incoming players, I try to watch as much video as I can, hopefully full games. Horn and Oduro both looked like good MAAC recruits in the video I've seen. I also speak to people inside the program to see how the guys look once they get on campus. From what I've been told, the freshmen look good and are ready to compete at the MAAC level. Listen Goldsaint- I don’t want to pi$$ on your and others optimism. I get you are hoping for the best and really nothing wrong with that. But surely given the revolving door we have seen the last 4 years you can see where the “doubters’ are coming from. Hope this is a moot point by end of December and we don’t have a “next coach” thread by early January. Carry on boys !!
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Jul 30, 2017 18:06:30 GMT -5
You're right about if these kids can't play he may lose his job.But I'm not going back and forth about this class because your mind is made up about what you think about them.And i wish the best for them .Go Saints
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Papi
Assistant Coach
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Post by Papi on Jul 30, 2017 18:27:26 GMT -5
You're right about if these kids can't play he may lose his job.But I'm not going back and forth about this class because your mind is made up about what you think about them.And i wish the best for them .Go Saints Don't go back and forth with the doubters. They have given up their support for the program and season tickets. They are hoping for failure and won't be happy unless there is a coaching change. It will be a pissing match all season. No coaching change anytime soon as I see it, this year should be fun, it's a shame some long time supporters will be rooting against any sort of success.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 18:40:45 GMT -5
Personally, I think there's a positive difference between Penn, Horn, and Bentley compared to guys like Mo White, Gottfried, Wormley etc..
If one doesn't see the difference between them and Gottfried and Mo White...I don't know what to tell you. And I don't know how anyone would know for sure that guys like Nolan and Patella will be guaranteed better players. Nolan was supposed to suck at shooting but not be that true of a PG and and it sounded like Patella was a bit turnover prone. Maybe the guys we landed end up better overall, we don't know yet.
But I perfectly understand what Tony is saying. There's been a lot of epic recruiting fails. We've recruited a ton of guys who maybe had special skills we needed at the time...but were never really all-around starter material. Other than a few like WB, I'd say most of them were fairly obvious from the beginning in this regard.
This class, at least, doesn't take away my hope before the season even starts of finding some more all around contributors.
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Post by hockeyguy on Jul 30, 2017 23:04:00 GMT -5
When Fran took the job he was derided by many on this board as ".500 Fran" and a horrible choice. A good percentage of you are still here and know who you are.
As for recruiting skills and "luck", let's review Fran's efforts for the short time he was here. As the story goes Kenny had one other school show interest in him. Jacksonville took him to McDonald's, Fran took him to Jacks where he lobster for the first time in his life. (I would not consider Jack's "a Siena advantage"). When Kenny asked where his disabled dad would sit during games at the TUC, Fran pointed out the dozen or so handicap accessible places (a definite Siena advantage). Kenny was all but signed. He made Fran's legacy, the reason his jersey made it into the rafters the year after he graduated. Fran built a team around him. As I recall Ronald had some interest but no firm offers when Fran was visiting his mom and Fran got a phone call from an acquaintance suggesting he take a look at him, Ronald jumped at the chance. Pete Sheehan (Edwin's coach at Poughkeepsie) all but signed Edwin's name on his LOI. Not sure who recruited Alex, I recall Mitch's name being mentioned, but could be wrong. I believe it was Mitch, not Fran, that recruited Rossiter. At any rate, with those three classes (one class and two one guy signings) Fran's passport was stamped. Read it as you will, but I believe this to be pretty accurate. Fran was not "The Master Recruiter" some of you remember him as, he just didn't hang around along enough to live with his subsequent classes for it to show. BTW, I believe Basabe had played himself out of a starter roll by mid-way through his sophomore year and played less than 20 min per game soph-jr-sr years where he was a 7pt/5reb guy (still impressive for "a Siena recruit") but I bet JO or BB could match those numbers.
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