Saints 17-18 PG

[Deleted]

I can certainly respect what PPC is saying but she's wrong.

I just wanted to clear this argument up.

You're welcome.

[playerparentcoach]

May 4, 2017 9:19:54 GMT -5 @saintkk said:

I can certainly respect what PPC is saying but she's wrong.

I just wanted to clear this argument up.

You're welcome.

Ok here is something we can agree on. I will bring Lavon up just to make this point. The argument we had was that Lavon was brought in to play PF. In fact he was brought in to play the way he played his last 2 years. But things changed right away with transfers and injuries. I was not concerned because I knew he could earn time with his size if he rebounded and defended as a freshman regardless of his position. I am sure you recall me saying it did not matter if he started as a freshman. Yes he was told he would start and given what we had I believed he could earn it and he did. He was recruited to start as a SF but knowing his experience as a center in HS for 3 years I knew he could play anywhere. These things were taken into consideration with the decision.

Things changed with Khalil as well. He missed his senior year with an injury. Players transferred and players were brought in. If his replacement is a freshman I just hope he has to outplay Khalil for the spot. With Wormly gone Khalil and Kadeem were the pgs fighting for those few mins behind Wright. Moving Khalil to the 2 because he can score did not work out well for him. He was out there with Wright rather than getting the opportunity to show that he can run the team. And now you want to give a freshman the spot?

[gorvy]

This board has a long history of devaluing returning players and over hyping incoming freshmen. I call it the X curve. If the freshmen are good enough they will eventually take on the starter role, but not before at least some experience on the court is gained. Even Ronald Moore, one of the greatest pg in Siena college history didn't start until the sixth or seventh game.

[Deleted]

Khalil has never been an impact defender at any level. He's never been much of a rebounder, ballhawk, or blocked good enough shots for his position. And he doesn't do that great of a job keeping guys in front of him either.

He is an Evan Hymes or a Zavier Turner at best. He's a useful player because of his ability to score in bunches. However, he's not the guy to run your team or stop the other teams' PG.

Roman Penn stole the ball 76 times, had 8 blocks, in 27 games as a senior...while averaging 6.1 boards per game. That tells me he has some defensive energy to him.

Richard, on the other hand, had 18 steals, 0 blocks, in 29 games while averaging just 2.7 rpg as a soph...and still just 28 steals, 1 block, and 2.4 rpg in 28 games as a junior.

Richard may possibly be the slightly better shooter of the 2, but he's not likely the better all-around player.

[$cott]

There were 9 games that Richard played 20 minutes or more last year. In those 9 games he averaged 8.6 points, 2.7 rebounds, and 1.7 assists. Pretty respectable numbers for a freshman. I think we would all agree that the Richard we saw after the injury was a bit of a train wreck but let's not forget the Richard that was playing pretty well prior to that injury. Whether or not he can run the point is something we will have to wait and see on. He didn't show that ability last year but then again he didn't get much time there. And yes, people are always way too quick to put the incoming freshman into the rotation before they have played a minute of college ball.

[Sienafan]

Both sides in this debate are correct to some extent. PPC is correct that Richard was told his role would be as a scoring PG when he was recruited. However, the others are correct that he will no longer have an opportunity to fill that role. Smithen won out for the role of backup PG, so Richard's minutes came at the two. Richard is a combo guard, he was never a pure PG. Now we see that Patsos has brought in two scoring pure PGs in Penn and Horn. I think that's pretty conclusive evidence that the Richard as a PG thing is not going to come to fruition. I don't think that's an indictment of Richard's ball handling abilities however. Quite the opposite - I think Patsos has seen in practice he has a volume scorer who can shoot in Richard, and he wants the ball out of his hands so he can concentrate on scoring. It's a similar situation to two seasons ago when Wright was taken off the ball so he could concentrate more on scoring. I expect the spot Richard will be in competition for minutes at is the 2, not the 1. However, his height is a liability at that spot, so I see him more in the 6th man role, rather than playing starter's minutes.

Bottom line: I think Richard is going to have a lot of minutes next season off the ball where he gets to fire away at will from the perimeter. I think he's going to be much happier in that role, rather than if he were primarily tasked with bringing the ball up the court and getting the team into the offense. He's a natural shooter and scorer - let him do his thing. I do think that as of now Penn and Smithen are in competition for the staring PG spot. Richard is in competition with Shivers and Horn to start at the 2.

[playerparentcoach]

I disagree KK that Khalil cant keep guys in front of him. He can mathup with the pg full court in the open floor. Probably one of the best on the team at it. His size is the issue in the halfcourt. And he was not the only small guard with that problem in the MAAC. Also getting the most steals do not mean you are the best defender. Brett lead the team in steals per game last season. That stat just means you get your hands on the ball the most. Alot of them are the result of team defense. For example a trapping team will get passes stolen from the players not involved in the trap. Or the on ball defender will cause the ballhandler to travel or throw a bad pass but he wont get credit for the steal nor the turnover.

[playerparentcoach]

May 4, 2017 11:08:37 GMT -5 Sienafan said:

Both sides in this debate are correct to some extent. PPC is correct that Richard was told his role would be as a scoring PG when he was recruited. However, the others are correct that he will no longer have an opportunity to fill that role. Smithen won out for the role of backup PG, so Richard's minutes came at the two. Richard is a combo guard, he was never a pure PG. Now we see that Patsos has brought in two scoring pure PGs in Penn and Horn. I think that's pretty conclusive evidence that the Richard as a PG thing is not going to come to fruition. I don't think that's an indictment of Richard's ball handling abilities however. Quite the opposite - I think Patsos has seen in practice he has a volume scorer who can shoot in Richard, and he wants the ball out of his hands so he can concentrate on scoring. It's a similar situation to two seasons ago when Wright was taken off the ball so he could concentrate more on scoring. I expect the spot Richard will be in competition for minutes at is the 2, not the 1. However, his height is a liability at that spot, so I see him more in the 6th man role, rather than playing starter's minutes.

Bottom line: I think Richard is going to have a lot of minutes next season off the ball where he gets to fire away at will from the perimeter. I think he's going to be much happier in that role, rather than if he were primarily tasked with bringing the ball up the court and getting the team into the offense. He's a natural shooter and scorer - let him do his thing. I do think that as of now Penn and Smithen are in competition for the staring PG spot. Richard is in competition with Shivers and Horn to start at the 2.

So he got recruited over and I dont think that will keep him here if you are correct. Nico will play 2/3 and Shivers 2/3/4 both will probably start with D as a 4/5 and Friday as a 5. There wont be many mins for Richard if he is only playing the 2. Agreed that the plan changed. I guess we will find out if Richard accepts it.

[Deleted]

Penn is faster and can do most of the same things that Richard can do and perhaps defend better.
Horn is bigger.
Smithen can run the point and defends better.

No matter what anyone says, there is a competition here.

I'm betting on frosh this year.
Except for Nico, Wright, and Long I don't remember ever saying another frosh had a good chance to start during the JP era... I even said JO would need a year.

I just think that, given the skillsets of many of both the returning guys those incoming, it makes more sense for the more defensive and offensively attacking natured frosh to have an edge over their elders.

I said the day Richard signed that his ceilling was likely as a 6th man scorer type for a title team. I have not seen a single thing out of him that wasn't expected or that changes that assumption. He's a SG in a PG's body.

[hoopjunkie]

May 4, 2017 9:13:32 GMT -5 playerparentcoach said:

May 4, 2017 8:57:26 GMT -5 hoopjunkie said:

You didn't think Lavon was going to start before October 1st of his freshman year?

IF Prince comes here, he starts over "returning players" from Day one. The better player will play, regardless of class.

ps-and you still didn't address KS's logical point that when Richard signed here, Wormley was solidly ahead of him (28 starts his freshman year) at the point?

Please dont start with the Lavon stuff

Recruiting works like this

The player looks for schools that fit what they want. The position you play is a big part of your choice. PT is also a deciding factor. Some are ok with waiting for the person in front of them and some want immediate PT. Depending on your options you make your decision. Its foolish to believe a coach that says you will start right away. You must also look at the situation and be honest about what you will bring to the table. If you believe the time is there for you to earn it then you go for it

The coach will look for what he needs to win. Some are honest with recriits and give them the opportunity to earn the time they are offering. Some tell you what you want to hear then roll the dice on several players that do the same thing then discard the rest.


There are alot of things that can happen in between. But the player and his circle know what was told them to get them to accept the offer. It is not always the same thing you hear in the press.

I guarantee you thought Lavon would start over Sienas "returning players", but I understand why you'd avoid the question. It contradicts your theory.

Trust me, I know all too well how recruiting works. And your personal situation makes it look lke you didn't look for a school, or you would have picked Siena in the first place. You chose Loyola, and then Siena when JP decided to move here. Looks like, in your situation, you chose to play for a coach, not a school.

[hoopjunkie]

May 3, 2017 19:34:03 GMT -5 playerparentcoach said:

May 3, 2017 18:58:53 GMT -5 goldsaint17 said:

We didn't get a large sample size, but I didn't see Richard as a true point guard. When he was in at PG, we almost always ran offense through Lavon and played some simple pick-and-roll stuff for Khalil with the ball in his hands. Based on what Patsos, his high school coach, and his stats say, Penn is a true point guard capable of running the show. Khalil has a role on this team, perhaps as the 6th man. He seemed like a smart player who could make some shots and create off the bounce. I guess time will tell whether he can step into a PG role. One of the guards of Penn, Richard, Horn, and Smithen is going to wind up getting boxed out of the rotation unless there is an injury (assuming Shivers and Nico are starters).

Khalil is a pass first pg that can score.

Richard had 23 assists in 388 minutes. Wright had 8x more assists in 3x as many minutes. Yet you continually infer that Marquis wasn't a real PG?? This team needed him to score, so yeah he shot a lot. Freshman dont shoot much, especially when you have 4 senior starters and Nico. I think Richard will be able to provide a nice scoring option off the bench this year, but he's no PG.

Three people are guaranteed starting roles this year. Nico, Shivers and Degnan. Penn/Smithen at PG, and Prince/Friday at C are the two battles.

[Quackman]

This thread perfectly proves Gorvy's point about overvaluing freshman, undervaluing returners.

I don't know if Richard will play the point or the 2, or both. But, behind Clareth, Richard is the best returning "scorer" the Saints have. Whether that means he is a starter or 6th man type, the Saints will look to him to provide some scoring punch. He is also a "gritty" player not afraid to mix it up (the kind of guy that JP likes)

I'd expect him to make the sophomore leap and be a consistent contributor for these Saints, competing with Penn, Horn and Smithen for major minutes at the 1 and 2. Further, I expect this team to play a fair amount of small ball with 4 wings on the court with a big, so all of the wings will have a chance to play major minutes.

[Sienafan]

May 4, 2017 11:29:11 GMT -5 playerparentcoach said:

May 4, 2017 11:08:37 GMT -5 Sienafan said:

Both sides in this debate are correct to some extent. PPC is correct that Richard was told his role would be as a scoring PG when he was recruited. However, the others are correct that he will no longer have an opportunity to fill that role. Smithen won out for the role of backup PG, so Richard's minutes came at the two. Richard is a combo guard, he was never a pure PG. Now we see that Patsos has brought in two scoring pure PGs in Penn and Horn. I think that's pretty conclusive evidence that the Richard as a PG thing is not going to come to fruition. I don't think that's an indictment of Richard's ball handling abilities however. Quite the opposite - I think Patsos has seen in practice he has a volume scorer who can shoot in Richard, and he wants the ball out of his hands so he can concentrate on scoring. It's a similar situation to two seasons ago when Wright was taken off the ball so he could concentrate more on scoring. I expect the spot Richard will be in competition for minutes at is the 2, not the 1. However, his height is a liability at that spot, so I see him more in the 6th man role, rather than playing starter's minutes.

Bottom line: I think Richard is going to have a lot of minutes next season off the ball where he gets to fire away at will from the perimeter. I think he's going to be much happier in that role, rather than if he were primarily tasked with bringing the ball up the court and getting the team into the offense. He's a natural shooter and scorer - let him do his thing. I do think that as of now Penn and Smithen are in competition for the staring PG spot. Richard is in competition with Shivers and Horn to start at the 2.

So he got recruited over and I dont think that will keep him here if you are correct. Nico will play 2/3 and Shivers 2/3/4 both will probably start with D as a 4/5 and Friday as a 5. There wont be many mins for Richard if he is only playing the 2. Agreed that the plan changed. I guess we will find out if Richard accepts it.

I don't think he was recruited over - I think they decided he'd be better/happier off the ball where he can concentrate on being a scorer with the green light to shoot at will. I'd say he's already accepted it, as that's what he did all last season. Nico is going to play the 3 most of the time, so the 2 is wide open. Shivers has not earned a guaranteed start at that spot. I think Richards has a chance to win the starting 2 job because he's a shooter/scorer and Shivers is not.

[playerparentcoach]

May 4, 2017 14:01:36 GMT -5 hoopjunkie said:

May 4, 2017 9:13:32 GMT -5 playerparentcoach said:

Please dont start with the Lavon stuff

Recruiting works like this

The player looks for schools that fit what they want. The position you play is a big part of your choice. PT is also a deciding factor. Some are ok with waiting for the person in front of them and some want immediate PT. Depending on your options you make your decision. Its foolish to believe a coach that says you will start right away. You must also look at the situation and be honest about what you will bring to the table. If you believe the time is there for you to earn it then you go for it

The coach will look for what he needs to win. Some are honest with recriits and give them the opportunity to earn the time they are offering. Some tell you what you want to hear then roll the dice on several players that do the same thing then discard the rest.


There are alot of things that can happen in between. But the player and his circle know what was told them to get them to accept the offer. It is not always the same thing you hear in the press.

I guarantee you thought Lavon would start over Sienas "returning players", but I understand why you'd avoid the question. It contradicts your theory.

Trust me, I know all too well how recruiting works. And your personal situation makes it look lke you didn't look for a school, or you would have picked Siena in the first place. You chose Loyola, and then Siena when JP decided to move here. Looks like, in your situation, you chose to play for a coach, not a school.

The coach is a big part of the fit. You want to be comfortable with the entire situation. I always say go where you are loved. He had options and chose balance of academics and coaching philosphy. It was important to play for someone that planned to use what you have in a role you are comfortable with. The change from Loyola was due to the conference change. Probably would have stuck with it had Patsos stayed because I believed he would not have changed his coaching style nor recruiting. Once it became evident that things like summer school and transfers would not be allowed Patsos looked for an out and so did we. Coming to Siena changed things as far as what you guys had and what Lavon's role would be his first season. But like I said before I was confident that he would earn time and that the staff knew his game and would let him play it

[playerparentcoach]

May 4, 2017 15:51:53 GMT -5 Sienafan said:

May 4, 2017 11:29:11 GMT -5 playerparentcoach said:

So he got recruited over and I dont think that will keep him here if you are correct. Nico will play 2/3 and Shivers 2/3/4 both will probably start with D as a 4/5 and Friday as a 5. There wont be many mins for Richard if he is only playing the 2. Agreed that the plan changed. I guess we will find out if Richard accepts it.

I don't think he was recruited over - I think they decided he'd be better/happier off the ball where he can concentrate on being a scorer with the green light to shoot at will. I'd say he's already accepted it, as that's what he did all last season. Nico is going to play the 3 most of the time, so the 2 is wide open. Shivers has not earned a guaranteed start at that spot. I think Richards has a chance to win the starting 2 job because he's a shooter/scorer and Shivers is not.

Shivers can score he just knew last year was not his time. Expect him to be more offensive minded next season. Khalil is better at the 1 and I doubt he comes to Siena if he was recruited to play the 2