slim
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Post by slim on Dec 24, 2016 8:21:16 GMT -5
Tony, with his future on the line,and its impact on the next 2-3 years,can we really think that JP mailed in the recruiting effort this summer? Does he lack HS and/or AAU contacts after all these years in the game? Maybe a lot of the blame rests of Manning, Watson and the departed Jordan. Or are we way off the radar to MM kids now. Have to think there is a reason they offered Horn rather than wait to see how the spring recruiting effort panned out. MJS72- that is million dollar question- why isn’t Jimmy recruiting better? When you have playing time available, a good mid major with a history of winning, one of larger mid major fan base, play in pro arena, media interest, 12 million dollar practice facility, it's a head scratcher why he can't recruit. Some will say he is lazy recruiter, would rather spend spring time in Paris, attend triple crown races, Cal Ripken luncheon rather than spend time recruiting. Every other Siena coach I can remember I would see at local high school games- how many times have you seen Jimmy or his staff at local High school games, we use to see kids at practices, scrimmages and even games. Jimmy seldom has kids in, some coaches get tired of kissing the a$$ of high school players or dealing with sometimes (not always) slimy AAU coaches. Other people say coaches are using his sometimes bizarre (yelling and screaming) not even watching game behavior against him. Whatever the reason – bottom line he isn’t landing them. Just this past fall with playing time available he swung and missed on 3 of his primary targets, one a football player – might play college football- ok I’ll give him a pass- another kid, solid player not a top notch recruit- in fact Albany didn’t think he was good enough for Albany, but anyway we have him in for official visit - Vermont gets involved late and he signs with AE team. Another PG we bring in on official visit – again same thing another program gets in and he chooses Chattanooga. In both cases primary target choose a school from lower rated conference. Both of these kids were solid mid major recruits- not top of the line, but solid and Jimmy couldn’t land him- won’t get into Anthony Lamb last year, who Jimmy also lost to Vermont- he will probably end us beating us next week..LOL.. In short I don’t know reason, other than to say this coach is a bull shitter and cant recruit at level Siena wants. I think at Loyola he also recruited that way- but Baltimore /Washington area produces several D1 athletes every year and Jimmy got his share of them that didn’t work out at higher level and wanted to come home- here at Siena it doesn’t work that way- you have to get recruits the ole fashioned way- and Jimmy’s social life and behavior seems to be getting in the way. All I know is any coach at Siena that consistently swings and misses on primary recruits, give scholarships away as favors to friends and recruits a majority of kids with little to no other D1 offers- isn’t going to last at Siena, and I think that’s the dilemma Jimmy now faces. Only so long you can bullshit fans, blame asst coaches etc- recruiting eventually falls on head coach. No question Jimmy isnt getting it done Tony- Just speaking on UT Chattanoga situation. In the perspective of recruit how would they know Siena better situation? UTC made NCAA tourney last year won 29 games. They have beaten few HM teams this year & last year. They have current player who is on the NBA draft board as 2nd round pick. There head Coach was the top Asst at University of FL under now current NBA coach that Coaches one the top NBA players Westbrook that young kids love. With all that said if your 17-19 year old kid how is Siena more attractive? This just from bball side only not comparing academics , community etc. Mid major top 25 has UTC at #11 www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.phpHas Vermont made it too the NCAA tourney recently? Vermont has strong academics I believe. Do you think these were factors in chosing Vermont over Siena?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 8:33:56 GMT -5
That kid had ties to Vermont, not to mention that they are a perennial power in the AE. This plays right into Tony's point although from a different perspective. Not winning and missing the NIT and NCAA quickly relegates you to second and third rate tiers when the school choices are made.
If JP can't recruit kids that fit his style of play he's doomed.
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Post by Tony on Dec 24, 2016 8:44:10 GMT -5
I meant no offense to either Vermont or Chattanooga both are good programs- heck Vermont has owned Siena recently - but both play in lower ranked conferences, dont have facilities as good as Siena, doesn’t have the media interest or fan interest Siena does. Academics certainly can play a factor. If these were isolated incidents you could easily overlook them, things happen. But in Jimmy's case he seldom wins recruiting battles here at Siena. Time after time its same thing, doesn’t matter who it is, Jimmy almost always loses recruiting battle here at Siena the last 3 years- 10 years ago Siena was winning recruiting battles against best mid majors in country ( and that was before Fran won in NCAA) before Fran Lanier won many a recruiting battle again against top level mid majors and he wasn't even winning. In fact I believe Lanier was best recruiter we ever had here at Siena, he couldn’t coach his way out of wet paper bag, but that man could recruit. I refuse to believe a coach at Siena can't get his primary recruits- and it’s not like he is losing them to high level A10 teams , when it consistently happens to a coach time after time- there is something wrong other than a kid not being a good fit
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slim
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Post by slim on Dec 24, 2016 9:26:17 GMT -5
I meant no offense to either Vermont or Chattanooga both are good programs- heck Vermont has owned Siena recently - but both play in lower ranked conferences, dont have facilities as good as Siena, doesn’t have the media interest or fan interest Siena does. Academics certainly can play a factor. If these were isolated incidents you could easily overlook them, things happen. But in Jimmy's case he seldom wins recruiting battles here at Siena. Time after time its same thing, doesn’t matter who it is, Jimmy almost always loses recruiting battle here at Siena the last 3 years- 10 years ago Siena was winning recruiting battles against best mid majors in country ( and that was before Fran won in NCAA) before Fran Lanier won many a recruiting battle again against top level mid majors and he wasn't even winning. In fact I believe Lanier was best recruiter we ever had here at Siena, he couldn’t coach his way out of wet paper bag, but that man could recruit. I refuse to believe a coach at Siena can't get his primary recruits- and it’s not like he is losing them to high level A10 teams , when it consistently happens to a coach time after time- there is something wrong other than a kid not being a good fit Does Conf success really matter if the team making NCAA tourney n getting national pub? No disrespect but IMO MAAC is not way better then Aeast or Socon. I think as prospect /parent there looking more at academics, current bball success, coaching, alumin, etc. That's just my opinion if your not HM program or top Mid major a Gonzaga , Witch St, St Mary's etc or top A10 I don't think kids no the difference.
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Dec 24, 2016 9:45:14 GMT -5
I meant no offense to either Vermont or Chattanooga both are good programs- heck Vermont has owned Siena recently - but both play in lower ranked conferences, dont have facilities as good as Siena, doesn’t have the media interest or fan interest Siena does. Academics certainly can play a factor. If these were isolated incidents you could easily overlook them, things happen. But in Jimmy's case he seldom wins recruiting battles here at Siena. Time after time its same thing, doesn’t matter who it is, Jimmy almost always loses recruiting battle here at Siena the last 3 years- 10 years ago Siena was winning recruiting battles against best mid majors in country ( and that was before Fran won in NCAA) before Fran Lanier won many a recruiting battle again against top level mid majors and he wasn't even winning. In fact I believe Lanier was best recruiter we ever had here at Siena, he couldn’t coach his way out of wet paper bag, but that man could recruit. I refuse to believe a coach at Siena can't get his primary recruits- and it’s not like he is losing them to high level A10 teams , when it consistently happens to a coach time after time- there is something wrong other than a kid not being a good fit Tony agree with you on everything. However Vermont academics are equal to Siena when using grad rates. Supposedly their NCAA graduation standing rate is 100% while Siena avg 83, highly suspect with the number. When using the federal graduation rates for BB they fall below Siena. That being said your analysis of the program is spot on. Great venue to play in, practice facility, good academics, loyal huge fan base, yet our coach can't recruit bogus. The man is definitely lazy, his physical presence give a bad perception is antics on the court are worse. BB knowledge and teaching methodology of the game lacking. Does it should it all fall on JP. Is he receiving the help from the admin. This will irk the Siena purists, but the school needs to take in transfers, JUCO's yes the right ones. Your competing against other D1 programs that don't have the venue, facilities, recognition but they know D1hoop is a business and will make the conscious decision to perhaps bring a lesser desired player in to enhance the program. Do we have to like it no but its reality. My belief is that admissions make it very difficult at times for ther Siena coach's to get kids in. Basically if you want to play at the D1 level play by the rules that everyone else does.
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Post by Tony on Dec 24, 2016 9:51:09 GMT -5
Does Conf success really matter if the team making NCAA tourney n getting national pub? No disrespect but IMO MAAC is not way better then Aeast or Socon. I think as prospect /parent there looking more at academics, current bball success, coaching, alumin, etc. That's just my opinion if your not HM program or top Mid major a Gonzaga , Witch St, St Mary's etc or top A10 I don't think kids no the difference. Get off the academics-- you are just being a contrarian now. If academics is an issue( and many times it is) then kid shouldn't have been a "primary" recruit. You know as well as I do how this works. If you dont have a major that interests kid, or other way if kid is "shaky" academically- the kid isnt a primary recruit- the kid is then a"B" level recruit or you look elsewhere, successful coaches identify the academics question very early in process. Bottom line here, every successful coach here at Siena- once he identified primary recruits was very successful in landing his primary recruits in a given year. Current coaching staff has struggled in that regard. Hope that helps!!
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slim
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Post by slim on Dec 24, 2016 10:02:57 GMT -5
Does Conf success really matter if the team making NCAA tourney n getting national pub? No disrespect but IMO MAAC is not way better then Aeast or Socon. I think as prospect /parent there looking more at academics, current bball success, coaching, alumin, etc. That's just my opinion if your not HM program or top Mid major a Gonzaga , Witch St, St Mary's etc or top A10 I don't think kids no the difference. Get off the academics-- you are just being a contrarian now. If academics is an issue( and many times it is) then kid shouldn't have been a "primary" recruit. You know as well as I do how this works. If you dont have a major that interests kid, or other way if kid is "shaky" academically- the kid isnt a primary recruit- the kid is then a"B" level recruit or you look elsewhere, successful coaches identify the academics question very early in process. Bottom line here, every successful coach here at Siena- once he identified primary recruits was very successful in landing his primary recruits in a given year. Current coaching staff has struggled in that regard. Hope that helps!! I briefly mentioned academics. My point was most kids/parents don't see the MAAC being far better then Socon or Aeast School. I'm just saying with no recent NCAA appreances not sure you can be upset if kid picks programs like UTC or Vermont who have been good as of late.
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Post by greenblood on Dec 24, 2016 10:09:23 GMT -5
I'll expound on academics. Its not about the graduation rate as oldDave eluded to. It's about the fields of study offered. Check it out, there are more opportunities for different area of study at other colleges mentioned.
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Dec 24, 2016 10:14:44 GMT -5
I'll expound on academics. Its not about the graduation rate as oldDave eluded to. It's about the fields of study offered. Check it out, there are more opportunities for different area of study at other colleges mentioned. Bravo GB, those not wanting to change, thinking that what worked in the past works 30, 20 years later. Your spot on.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Dec 24, 2016 10:40:38 GMT -5
Tony, with his future on the line,and its impact on the next 2-3 years,can we really think that JP mailed in the recruiting effort this summer? Does he lack HS and/or AAU contacts after all these years in the game? Maybe a lot of the blame rests of Manning, Watson and the departed Jordan. Or are we way off the radar to MM kids now. Have to think there is a reason they offered Horn rather than wait to see how the spring recruiting effort panned out. MJS72- that is million dollar question- why isn’t Jimmy recruiting better? When you have playing time available, a good mid major with a history of winning, one of larger mid major fan base, play in pro arena, media interest, 12 million dollar practice facility, it's a head scratcher why he can't recruit. Some will say he is lazy recruiter, would rather spend spring time in Paris, attend triple crown races, Cal Ripken luncheon rather than spend time recruiting. Every other Siena coach I can remember I would see at local high school games- how many times have you seen Jimmy or his staff at local High school games, we use to see kids at practices, scrimmages and even games. Jimmy seldom has kids in, some coaches get tired of kissing the a$$ of high school players or dealing with sometimes (not always) slimy AAU coaches. Other people say coaches are using his sometimes bizarre (yelling and screaming) not even watching game behavior against him. Whatever the reason – bottom line he isn’t landing them. Just this past fall with playing time available he swung and missed on 3 of his primary targets, one a football player – might play college football- ok I’ll give him a pass- another kid, solid player not a top notch recruit- in fact Albany didn’t think he was good enough for Albany, but anyway we have him in for official visit - Vermont gets involved late and he signs with AE team. Another PG we bring in on official visit – again same thing another program gets in and he chooses Chattanooga. In both cases primary target choose a school from lower rated conference. Both of these kids were solid mid major recruits- not top of the line, but solid and Jimmy couldn’t land him- won’t get into Anthony Lamb last year, who Jimmy also lost to Vermont- he will probably end us beating us next week..LOL.. In short I don’t know reason, other than to say this coach is a bull shitter and cant recruit at level Siena wants. I think at Loyola he also recruited that way- but Baltimore /Washington area produces several D1 athletes every year and Jimmy got his share of them that didn’t work out at higher level and wanted to come home- here at Siena it doesn’t work that way- you have to get recruits the ole fashioned way- and Jimmy’s social life and behavior seems to be getting in the way. All I know is any coach at Siena that consistently swings and misses on primary recruits, give scholarships away as favors to friends and recruits a majority of kids with little to no other D1 offers- isn’t going to last at Siena, and I think that’s the dilemma Jimmy now faces. Only so long you can bullshit fans, blame asst coaches etc- recruiting eventually falls on head coach. No question Jimmy isnt getting it done Good post, Tony. This probably details what a lot of us kind of realize but are not as knowledgeable and articulate about.
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Post by Tony on Dec 24, 2016 10:53:14 GMT -5
I'll expound on academics. Its not about the graduation rate as oldDave eluded to. It's about the fields of study offered. Check it out, there are more opportunities for different area of study at other colleges mentioned. No question that limits number of kids-- but by time kid is here on "official" visit, is clearly one of your primary recruits, the academics issue of recruiting should be settled. And that's what this is about-- once a kid is identified as primary recruit every single successful coach we have had here at Siena was able to land a very high pct of his primary recruits. In JP's case its not like he is shooting for moon ( recruiting on level Fran or Lanier recruited at ) his primary recruits for most part have been "modest" mid major recruits- not high level mid major. and he is still struggling- clearly something is lacking. You can make an excuse for any 1 particular recruit- no coach signs them all- but when a coach is consistently missing on his primary recruits- doubly so with playing time available-probably the single most important thing, that Slim conveniently left out ) it is a major league red flag
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Dec 24, 2016 11:42:43 GMT -5
It's just a downward spiral. Mitch started out identifying good kids and getting them interested but couldn't sign them and we lost more. Now the good kids that were at least interested don't bother and you are onto B and C kids. See Hopper etc. Now with Rex, we were good on Prince but every other kid moved on. We are no in with local kids or western NY which seems to producing a. Ice level of talent these days. I saw a tweet that GW was watching Girard last night - I would bet a grand that Carl was home for holiday and said let's go catch this kids game then we can go out or go see family. That's the difference
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mrsiena
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Post by mrsiena on Dec 24, 2016 12:42:16 GMT -5
Many have mentioned Siena's fan support. At the meet 'n greet I counted over 100 seats on the lower level that were tagged as being given up by prior season ticket holders. If the current path of losing continues I see that number doubling or tripling next year with everyone's perception of the big drop off in talent due to graduation. And the connotations by some that Marquis and Lavon not meshing with Nico doesn't readily promote a turnaround in success in my opinion. And let me add in that we haven't been able to drum up a bus trip thus far this season. Very telling.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 24, 2016 16:11:27 GMT -5
This recruiting season has been very disheartening. With 4 senior starters, we should have a line of quality kids that know they can get immediate playing time, even starting, as a freshman. I still think that's most kids first concern when picking a college. The staff hasn't gotten it done. Very disappointing and could the last straw in this staffs stay with this program.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 24, 2016 16:36:23 GMT -5
That's why this season should have been about building wins. Instead we got suspensions,lineup tinkering, unwinable road games and laugher home games--- all the little things have added up to disaster.
I urge coach to save the season by focusing on the best lineup-- -00- 01-15-24-31. Run smithen shivers huerter and Friday in spot situations esp in first half. The other lineups don't work long term.
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