$cott
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Post by $cott on Apr 23, 2015 10:20:44 GMT -5
The bigger issue for Siena is going to be whether guys like Brookins, Burdine, Breeden, Hopper, Beard, Gomis, Audu, White, Wolfe, and Ogunyemi all graduate in 6 years. They will all count in Siena's APR.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 23, 2015 10:43:24 GMT -5
No it's not absurd. A regular student may choose to go the Juco route for all sorts of reasons, often financial. But a student with the talent to play div. 1 scholarship basketball would only choose to go the Juco route for two reasons - either because he or she can't qualify academically out of high school, or were dismissed from a 4 year school. Why else would one of them pass up a 4 year free ride at a 4 year institution? You like to paint with an awfully broad brush my friend in order to state with such confidence that all/any juco talented enough to move up to the D1 level fits so nicely into your 2 neat little boxes. Is that the case in some instances of course, but to put every player in that box .............. Point is there's no reason when the need arises that Siena can't find an acceptable Juco to fill a need ... al Juco players are not blockheads like you're implying. Okay, I'll bite. Give me examples of why I'm wrong. What reasons can you articulate other than academic/behavioral issues that would cause a talented div. 1 level athlete with interest from div. 1 schools to voluntarily choose a 2 year junior college over a 4 year div. 1 institution?
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 23, 2015 10:49:27 GMT -5
The bigger issue for Siena is going to be whether guys like Brookins, Burdine, Breeden, Hopper, Beard, Gomis, Audu, White, Wolfe, and Ogunyemi all graduate in 6 years. They will all count in Siena's APR. Most of those guys ended up at other schools, so it's looking good that they are on track to graduate from somewhere. The only ones whose futures are unknown are the latter three you listed because they just left this season and haven't found landing spots yet. The one guy I worry about in terms of APR is Cole - I can see him ending up nowhere. The question is does he count against Siena's APR - or Coppin State's?
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Apr 23, 2015 10:58:09 GMT -5
You like to paint with an awfully broad brush my friend in order to state with such confidence that all/any juco talented enough to move up to the D1 level fits so nicely into your 2 neat little boxes. Is that the case in some instances of course, but to put every player in that box .............. Point is there's no reason when the need arises that Siena can't find an acceptable Juco to fill a need ... al Juco players are not blockheads like you're implying. Okay, I'll bite. Give me examples of why I'm wrong. What reasons can you articulate other than academic/behavioral issues that would cause a talented div. 1 level athlete with interest from div. 1 schools to voluntarily choose a 2 year junior college over a 4 year div. 1 institution? I think we are talking about two different things . im simply stating that not every Juco coming out of a 2 year program is a risk.Yes some may have had sub par grades & failed to qualify as a frosh but choose the Juco route vs prep. However a lot of these kid are able to elevate thier grades after going the Juco route and go on to have successful d1 runs. Singletary at UA comes to mind.
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billmurray
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Post by billmurray on Apr 23, 2015 11:00:10 GMT -5
The bigger issue for Siena is going to be whether guys like Brookins, Burdine, Breeden, Hopper, Beard, Gomis, Audu, White, Wolfe, and Ogunyemi all graduate in 6 years. They will all count in Siena's APR. Most of those guys ended up at other schools, so it's looking good that they are on track to graduate from somewhere. The only ones whose futures are unknown are the latter three you listed because they just left this season and haven't found landing spots yet. The one guy I worry about in terms of APR is Cole - I can see him ending up nowhere. The question is does he count against Siena's APR - or Coppin State's? I believe once they leave Siena in good academic standing that is the end of it from Siena's perspective. Siena's APR is not effected by their subsequent academic record and whether or not the eventually get their degree. All that matters is that while at Siena they were in good academic standing and were progressing satisfactorily toward a degree.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Apr 23, 2015 11:14:23 GMT -5
This entire argument is predicated on the conclusion that ALL Jucos are sub par academically which is absurd It may have gravitated that way, but I think the argument started off with the predication that most JUCOs have some reason they do not start off at a 4 year college or prep a year. Not all those reasons are bad, just that they require extreme caution and diligence, even moreso than transfers from 4 year schools.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Apr 23, 2015 11:18:20 GMT -5
For some reason St. Fran was allowed to bring in JUCO's to help this program win. Why isn't Jimmy allowed to recruit by the same standards?? Who were the JUCOs under Fran?
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Apr 23, 2015 11:35:01 GMT -5
Osby and Diop
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 23, 2015 12:12:08 GMT -5
Okay, I'll bite. Give me examples of why I'm wrong. What reasons can you articulate other than academic/behavioral issues that would cause a talented div. 1 level athlete with interest from div. 1 schools to voluntarily choose a 2 year junior college over a 4 year div. 1 institution? I think we are talking about two different things . im simply stating that not every Juco coming out of a 2 year program is a risk.Yes some may have had sub par grades & failed to qualify as a frosh but choose the Juco route vs prep. However a lot of these kid are able to elevate thier grades after going the Juco route and go on to have successful d1 runs. Singletary at UA comes to mind. That's why I don't mind JUCOs, I have faith that Siena will do their due diligence. My fear or opinion is that due to the lack of Siena JUCOs over the past 20-30 yrs - I don't think Siena likes or wants to go that route (for what ever their reason). We can only infer that reason.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on Apr 23, 2015 12:12:47 GMT -5
The bigger issue for Siena is going to be whether guys like Brookins, Burdine, Breeden, Hopper, Beard, Gomis, Audu, White, Wolfe, and Ogunyemi all graduate in 6 years. They will all count in Siena's APR. Most of those guys ended up at other schools, so it's looking good that they are on track to graduate from somewhere. The only ones whose futures are unknown are the latter three you listed because they just left this season and haven't found landing spots yet. The one guy I worry about in terms of APR is Cole - I can see him ending up nowhere. The question is does he count against Siena's APR - or Coppin State's? Assuming Brookins will never graduate. Anyone know about Burdine? He played for Georgetown College as a junior in 2013-2014 and then was apparently gone in 2014-2015. Suppose he could have graduated early but seems like with the mess he was in at Siena that is pretty doubtful. That could be two strikes against them in that class. Good news is the three classes prior to them were pretty solid. Pretty sure Cole will only count against Coppin State.
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 23, 2015 12:14:17 GMT -5
I liked them both albeit liked Diop more (as a player and representive of Siena BBall). That doesn't mean I didn't like Osby just that liked Diop better.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 23, 2015 14:07:33 GMT -5
Okay, I'll bite. Give me examples of why I'm wrong. What reasons can you articulate other than academic/behavioral issues that would cause a talented div. 1 level athlete with interest from div. 1 schools to voluntarily choose a 2 year junior college over a 4 year div. 1 institution? I think we are talking about two different things . im simply stating that not every Juco coming out of a 2 year program is a risk.Yes some may have had sub par grades & failed to qualify as a frosh but choose the Juco route vs prep. However a lot of these kid are able to elevate thier grades after going the Juco route and go on to have successful d1 runs. Singletary at UA comes to mind. There are always exceptions that prove the rule. It would appear that Siena isn't interested in seeking out those exceptions. The thing to keep in mind is that while a lot of community colleges are legit institutions of higher learning, many more are not. Take the school where Iona stashed Isaiah Williams for a year to get him eligible for example - State College of Florida, Manatee-Sarasota. Williams was an academic hot mess out of high school, and turned it around after one year at that school. This is not a place Siena ought to be taking student athletes from. Have you ever wondered how all those Jucos that attend Iona never seem to have academic problems again? I won't make allegations, but it's quite an interesting coincidence. Also, don't be so naïve as to think that Westchester Community College and Gio McClean were atypical. They're not - they just happened to get caught. I don't think Siena wants to be involved in all that, so they just choose to avoid the JUCO route all together.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Apr 23, 2015 16:15:54 GMT -5
For some reason St. Fran was allowed to bring in JUCO's to help this program win. Why isn't Jimmy allowed to recruit by the same standards?? I provided my opinion in one of my numerous replays to this: I believe Fran "was allowed" because he needed bodies since many defected when Rob got fired (plus Haddix got hurt). Remember we had a walk on getting some mins almost each game (Justin Maxwell). If it weren't for the need if bodies, it's my opinion Siena wouldn't have necessarily allowed it. Look, I'll say it again. I don't mind JUCOs. But based in Sirna's track record for getting JUCOs without any reason why, I'm left to draw my own conclusion- which unfortunately is academics/qualifying/or perceived trouble cases. Until Siena (or anyone in the know) can provide their reason(s) it's not unreasonable to assume it could be one of the 3 I mentioned. Edited. Currently Jimmy has almost a full cubbies of players, Fran didn't his 1st yr and maybe Siena bent it's unwritten (perceived by this fan) rule of not wanting to go the JUCO route. Jimmy always says we're doing it the right way (or Siena does it the right way). What does that mean? To me it means they offer an opportunity for a 4 yr degree first and then basketball secondary. A bonus is to also meet some sort of academic standard that might be higher for BBall than other colleges. JMO "Needed bodies?" Thats a cop out. Plenty of prep school, and HS seniors were available I'm sure.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Apr 23, 2015 16:17:23 GMT -5
Who did Jamal Jackson play for?
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Post by Tony on Apr 23, 2015 16:33:38 GMT -5
Who did Jamal Jackson play for? Lanier.. Lanier also signed Mark Price from Erie CC..and don't forget the big German JuCo Saint Fran signed Any way you slice it not many over the years-- having said that I'm quite sure given right circumstances Jimmy can get an occasional JuCo in. Personaly I don't think Jimmy has any interest in JuCo's at all
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