IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 22, 2015 20:54:53 GMT -5
Just the opposite, I don't believe Siena will go the JUCO route (very often) due to it's perceived lowering of the Athletics grades/graduation rate. At least that's the perception (since they don't go that route like Iona). Siena doesn't want the baggage or stigmatism that's associated (perceived) with JUCOs. Practically every team country goes this route at one time or another why are we so special ? I can only assume it's some perceived form of higher standards.
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 22, 2015 21:00:21 GMT -5
That's he feels that the admin/or staff feel like it may be an academic risk to take a JUCO right now based on the fact that some have trouble academically (and that's why they go the JUCO route). Because they are losing JO's team high GPA and the transfers out, then maybe the team GPA is not seen as stable enough to take on such a risk. No mention whether he felt that way, just his opinion the admin might feel that way. I took it as a sterotype assumming any JC kid that comes here will have a bad GPA. If Siena cared so much about academics, Edwin never would have been admitted. I do believe there's a perception of that correlation, even though there's other reasons for going the JUCO route. What I want to know is with so many coaching changes at Siena over the past 20 yrs it can't be a coincidence that Siena didn't go the JUCO route often. The only constant over the 20 yrs was the admin. Again, I'm not saying I'm right or it's a good policy but something doesn't make sense as to why Siena hadn't gone that route as often as it's peers. Why?
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 22, 2015 21:02:21 GMT -5
Just the opposite, I don't believe Siena will go the JUCO route (very often) due to it's perceived lowering of the Athletics grades/graduation rate. At least that's the perception (since they don't go that route like Iona). Siena doesn't want the baggage or stigmatism that's associated (perceived) with JUCOs. Practically every team country goes this route at one time or another why are we so special ? Exactly, why doesn't Siena go that route? That's the question. I'm only suggesting what others may perceive as a plausible reason.
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 22, 2015 21:06:35 GMT -5
Dean Smith signed Bob McAoo and Bobby Knight did all right with Keith Smart I'm all in favor of it, I'm just not convinced Siena is (for what every reason). Why hasn't Siena gone that route (often) in the past. I'm not talking the handful of cases, but why haven't they gone that route as often as Iona? That's the real question.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Apr 22, 2015 22:26:28 GMT -5
For some reason St. Fran was allowed to bring in JUCO's to help this program win. Why isn't Jimmy allowed to recruit by the same standards??
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Post by knicksaint on Apr 22, 2015 23:12:31 GMT -5
Canisius just got a decent graduate transfer PG. McMillan from CCSU. Siena is really limited competitively by not having grad programs or taking JUCOs. I think that even overrides any advantage of fanbase and arena. There is no avenue for immediate improvement that most other schools have. It's part of the reason for this 5 year slump. Downward trends will continue to be extended until this is rectified. Siena can't easily compete in today's transfer environment. Davidson seems to be doing just fine under similar circumstances. Both schools are a rarity in Div. 1 being purely old school undergraduate liberal arts colleges. That said, the Siena administration sees the writing on the wall in terms of future sources of tuition revenue growth - and it's not in the undergraduate side of things given the shrinking pool of candidates that is not going to improve anytime soon. You can expect them to create a graduate school in the coming years. The newly added 17 acres across route 9 wasn't acquired just to have that lone operations building on it. Speaking of the future, Siena has now exceeded the $50 million goal in its latest fundraising campaign. It has $53.2 million raises as of the time I post this. Expect some movement on the athletic facility upgrades in the coming months, with groundbreaking as soon as next year. By law, they have to use the amount of that fundraising campaign specifically earmarked for the athletic facilities for that purpose or they must return the money. And I don't think anyone here believes Siena is about to return any money. Davidson is tied for 11th in the US News & World Report ranking of the national liberal arts colleges. Siena is tied for 113th. With all due respect to Siena's graduates, there is no comparison academically between the two schools. Davidson is a great place for a very intelligent basketball player who isn't good enough to play at Duke but wants a better level of basketball than the Ivies provide with perhaps slightly lower academic expectations relative to the Ivies. Davidson basketball also has stability in Bob McKillop and if I recall correctly, an Elite Eight appearance with Steph Curry, who seems to be the favorite for NBA MVP. We had the big three and back to back wins in the round of 32 and a very successful coach who left after five years. It is unrealistic to expect Siena to do what Davidson has been able to do.
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Post by MTS on Apr 22, 2015 23:19:21 GMT -5
For some reason St. Fran was allowed to bring in JUCO's to help this program win. Why isn't Jimmy allowed to recruit by the same standards?? I agree. Don't need a whole team of JUCOs just one here and there to plug a hole (like adding another athletic wing). Both Rob Lanier and Fran McCaffery took JUCOs. Siena needs to let Jimmy go out and recruit them if he sees one that could help the team. Graduate transfers are tougher to get but I'm not convinced Siena absolutely can't get them but will acknowledge it is a lot tougher for Siena.
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Post by MTS on Apr 22, 2015 23:26:17 GMT -5
Davidson seems to be doing just fine under similar circumstances. Both schools are a rarity in Div. 1 being purely old school undergraduate liberal arts colleges. That said, the Siena administration sees the writing on the wall in terms of future sources of tuition revenue growth - and it's not in the undergraduate side of things given the shrinking pool of candidates that is not going to improve anytime soon. You can expect them to create a graduate school in the coming years. The newly added 17 acres across route 9 wasn't acquired just to have that lone operations building on it. Speaking of the future, Siena has now exceeded the $50 million goal in its latest fundraising campaign. It has $53.2 million raises as of the time I post this. Expect some movement on the athletic facility upgrades in the coming months, with groundbreaking as soon as next year. By law, they have to use the amount of that fundraising campaign specifically earmarked for the athletic facilities for that purpose or they must return the money. And I don't think anyone here believes Siena is about to return any money. Davidson is tied for 11th in the US News & World Report ranking of the national liberal arts colleges. Siena is tied for 113th. With all due respect to Siena's graduates, there is no comparison academically between the two schools. Davidson is a great place for a very intelligent basketball player who isn't good enough to play at Duke but wants a better level of basketball than the Ivies provide with perhaps slightly lower academic expectations relative to the Ivies. Davidson basketball also has stability in Bob McKillop and if I recall correctly, an Elite Eight appearance with Steph Curry, who seems to be the favorite for NBA MVP. We had the big three and back to back wins in the round of 32 and a very successful coach who left after five years. It is unrealistic to expect Siena to do what Davidson has been able to do. No question Davidson is much better academically than Siena is. Davidson has been very lucky to get a lifer in McKillop. They also got very lucky with Curry - a player that good falling to them when the big boys overlooked him. I don't really think it is unrealistic Siena could have done what Davidson has achieved had they had a better track record of hiring coaches. I don't think Siena will ever be Gonzaga or Wichita State but we easily could be doing what Davidson is doing. If Siena had not hired Mitch after Fran left good chance Siena and not Davidson would have gotten the call to go into the Atlantic-10. Oh well only thing we can do now is to get the program back on track!
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 23, 2015 0:11:44 GMT -5
This entire argument is predicated on the conclusion that ALL Jucos are sub par academically which is absurd No it's not absurd. A regular student may choose to go the Juco route for all sorts of reasons, often financial. But a student with the talent to play div. 1 scholarship basketball would only choose to go the Juco route for two reasons - either because he or she can't qualify academically out of high school, or were dismissed from a 4 year school. Why else would one of them pass up a 4 year free ride at a 4 year institution?
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 23, 2015 0:23:07 GMT -5
That's he feels that the admin/or staff feel like it may be an academic risk to take a JUCO right now based on the fact that some have trouble academically (and that's why they go the JUCO route). Because they are losing JO's team high GPA and the transfers out, then maybe the team GPA is not seen as stable enough to take on such a risk. No mention whether he felt that way, just his opinion the admin might feel that way. That's what I'm trying to say. Hey, I admit I'm not politically correct; but there is a perception (real or not) that some go the JUCO route due to grades (especially when they're good enough to play D-1 from the start). I believe (real or not) that Siena is trying to maintain a level of academic standard (for its entire athletic program). So yes, that allows them to skimp in some areas while they may have scholars in other areas. For every Eddie we had many others who balanced it out. I'm not saying Eddie had bad grades but others have eluded to that so I'll use him as an example. This is justy opinion and I'm probably wrong. So why is it that Siena does not go the JUCO route - than if not for grades and/or character? Siena is very proud of its GSR and other NCAA academic metrics: www.siena.edu/news-events/article/siena-posts-92-percent-graduation-success-rateThus my guess is the administration sees Jucos as problematic in maintaining those numbers. I know someone mentioned there are a couple of Siena baseball players that are Jucos, but that is not the same thing as the crap that goes on in the revenue sports basketball and football. Look at it this way: the last time Siena permitted some Jucos under Fran, none of them graduated. I think that put an end to that.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 23, 2015 0:35:43 GMT -5
Davidson seems to be doing just fine under similar circumstances. Both schools are a rarity in Div. 1 being purely old school undergraduate liberal arts colleges. That said, the Siena administration sees the writing on the wall in terms of future sources of tuition revenue growth - and it's not in the undergraduate side of things given the shrinking pool of candidates that is not going to improve anytime soon. You can expect them to create a graduate school in the coming years. The newly added 17 acres across route 9 wasn't acquired just to have that lone operations building on it. Speaking of the future, Siena has now exceeded the $50 million goal in its latest fundraising campaign. It has $53.2 million raises as of the time I post this. Expect some movement on the athletic facility upgrades in the coming months, with groundbreaking as soon as next year. By law, they have to use the amount of that fundraising campaign specifically earmarked for the athletic facilities for that purpose or they must return the money. And I don't think anyone here believes Siena is about to return any money. Davidson is tied for 11th in the US News & World Report ranking of the national liberal arts colleges. Siena is tied for 113th. With all due respect to Siena's graduates, there is no comparison academically between the two schools. Davidson is a great place for a very intelligent basketball player who isn't good enough to play at Duke but wants a better level of basketball than the Ivies provide with perhaps slightly lower academic expectations relative to the Ivies. Davidson basketball also has stability in Bob McKillop and if I recall correctly, an Elite Eight appearance with Steph Curry, who seems to be the favorite for NBA MVP. We had the big three and back to back wins in the round of 32 and a very successful coach who left after five years. It is unrealistic to expect Siena to do what Davidson has been able to do. The relative academic rankings of the two schools is irrelevant to my point. The point is they are both undergraduate only schools, which is a rarity in div. 1 - and both have been traditionally successful programs without taking graduate transfers and Jucos. So I don't think it is as much of a disadvantage as was suggested. Davidson is an even more stringent academic school than Siena, they do not have a grad program, and they do not take marginal students. So it should be even harder for them because Siena will at least take some marginal students that Davidson wouldn't take. Yet Davidson has been just fine. I don't expect Siena to do what Davidson has been able to do. But I do expect Siena to win while maintaining it's academic integrity - as it has historically done. With all due respect to Siena's non-graduates, the degree on my wall means something to me and I don't want my alma mater compromising its ideals just to win some games. You non-grads may have no problem with how Iona does things, but frankly, I personally would be embarrassed to be a graduate of that school.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 3:27:30 GMT -5
This entire argument is predicated on the conclusion that ALL Jucos are sub par academically which is absurd No it's not absurd. A regular student may choose to go the Juco route for all sorts of reasons, often financial. But a student with the talent to play div. 1 scholarship basketball would only choose to go the Juco route for two reasons - either because he or she can't qualify academically out of high school, or were dismissed from a 4 year school. Why else would one of them pass up a 4 year free ride at a 4 year institution? Maybe to get a "free ride" at a 2 year school and then 2 more at a better 4 year school?
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mjs72
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Post by mjs72 on Apr 23, 2015 6:39:05 GMT -5
I have family involved in the Cornell program and was told Gilal Cancer committed to Kent St. yesterday. He also had offers from Santa Clara and Richmond. Seems like a poor choice of weather options.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Apr 23, 2015 6:42:40 GMT -5
This entire argument is predicated on the conclusion that ALL Jucos are sub par academically which is absurd No it's not absurd. A regular student may choose to go the Juco route for all sorts of reasons, often financial. But a student with the talent to play div. 1 scholarship basketball would only choose to go the Juco route for two reasons - either because he or she can't qualify academically out of high school, or were dismissed from a 4 year school. Why else would one of them pass up a 4 year free ride at a 4 year institution? You like to paint with an awfully broad brush my friend in order to state with such confidence that all/any juco talented enough to move up to the D1 level fits so nicely into your 2 neat little boxes. Is that the case in some instances of course, but to put every player in that box .............. Point is there's no reason when the need arises that Siena can't find an acceptable Juco to fill a need ... al Juco players are not blockheads like you're implying.
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Apr 23, 2015 7:59:13 GMT -5
For some reason St. Fran was allowed to bring in JUCO's to help this program win. Why isn't Jimmy allowed to recruit by the same standards?? I provided my opinion in one of my numerous replays to this: I believe Fran "was allowed" because he needed bodies since many defected when Rob got fired (plus Haddix got hurt). Remember we had a walk on getting some mins almost each game (Justin Maxwell). If it weren't for the need if bodies, it's my opinion Siena wouldn't have necessarily allowed it. Look, I'll say it again. I don't mind JUCOs. But based in Sirna's track record for getting JUCOs without any reason why, I'm left to draw my own conclusion- which unfortunately is academics/qualifying/or perceived trouble cases. Until Siena (or anyone in the know) can provide their reason(s) it's not unreasonable to assume it could be one of the 3 I mentioned. Edited. Currently Jimmy has almost a full cubbies of players, Fran didn't his 1st yr and maybe Siena bent it's unwritten (perceived by this fan) rule of not wanting to go the JUCO route. Jimmy always says we're doing it the right way (or Siena does it the right way). What does that mean? To me it means they offer an opportunity for a 4 yr degree first and then basketball secondary. A bonus is to also meet some sort of academic standard that might be higher for BBall than other colleges. JMO
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