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Post by MTS on Feb 18, 2024 18:13:14 GMT -5
I wish we could do a comparison of the BEST Siena teams ever (maybe in the off season!) but this is reality now —the 2023-2024 Siena men’s basketball team will likely go down as the worst team in their 48 year division 1 history (first year 1976-77)
1995-96
5-22, 1-13 MAAC
Point difference -240
2004-05
6-24, 4-14 MAAC
Point difference -267
2012-13
8-24, 4-14
Point difference -269
2017-18
8-24, 4-14
Point difference -240
2023-24
4-22, 3-12
Point difference -366
The 04-05, 12-13 and 17-18 were all very bad teams but close metrically together.
The only other team that is similar to this one is 95-96 which also had similarities of virtually no talent. They of course played less games back then.
The school record for D1 losses is 24 (3 times) that will easily be surpassed with at least 6 games left.
It’s also likely Siena will finish -400 in point differential when they’ve never finished -300 ever before.
KenPom: (Started in 2001-02)
2004-05: 285 2012-13: 298 2017-18: 303 2023-24: 359
This Siena team is now 2-10 at HOME and lost 9 straight at MVP arena. Out scored by 166 points.
The 95-96 team had two wins by 10 points or more. The 04-05 team had 1. The 12-13 team had 1. The 17-18 had 1. This team has none.
Also 04-05 had eventual stars (Kojo Mensah, Jack McClinton, Al Fisher and Tay Fisher, Scoop Jordan and Tommy Mitchell) … 12-13 all-MAAC Brett Bisping/Rob Poole) and 17-18 Roman Penn and Manny Camper.
The MAAC also was a lot better in 1996/2004/2012/2018.
The verdict is in this is the worst basketball team in program history and one of the worst in MAAC history.
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hardwood
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Post by hardwood on Feb 18, 2024 18:19:02 GMT -5
At this point it doesn’t even matter the damage is done.
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legacy
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Post by legacy on Feb 18, 2024 18:24:09 GMT -5
it does matter- the cold hard facts lend credence to the fact that change is necessary....as i posted bf Carm is on track to have the most losses in program history. By the largest margins of defeat. THAT is a fact too....He's on track for a sad, sad record On another note I enjoyed listening/watching Deane banter with the crowd while lauding his team... Oh what a dichotomy between him and Carm...
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Feb 18, 2024 19:10:30 GMT -5
Who needs stats. This doesn’t pass an eyetest. This is by far the worst roster, worst coached team and least entertaining basketball that I’ve ever seen @ Siena (and I go back to the late 70’s)!
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Post by blockhead43 on Feb 18, 2024 19:29:15 GMT -5
Amen to that. The Brooks/Holle/Walters/Cahill/Smith team, which was Division II in the mid 1970s, would beat this year's team by 20.
That team could also win the MAAC this year. Amazing how far Siena and the MAAC have fallen.
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Feb 18, 2024 21:06:34 GMT -5
it does matter- the cold hard facts lend credence to the fact that change is necessary....as i posted bf Carm is on track to have the most losses in program history. By the largest margins of defeat. THAT is a fact too....He's on track for a sad, sad record On another note I enjoyed listening/watching Deane banter with the crowd while lauding his team... Oh what a dichotomy between him and Carm... I’m not sure the snowflakes and coddllers could handle a coach like Deane in today’s world. I’d love a coach like Deane again.
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gradfan
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Post by gradfan on Feb 18, 2024 21:28:26 GMT -5
As bad as Beyer and Lanier were, do you think they would have recruited the players we had the last 2 years? Worst recruiter I have ever seen for a mid major team. What players would want to play for this coach so if he’s back you could expect the same results next year. What happens if we lose 2000 season ticket holders or more. No team in college basketball plays in an arena with a capacity of 15000 to 1000 fans. We’d be the laughing stock in all of college hoops.
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hardwood
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Post by hardwood on Feb 19, 2024 6:08:02 GMT -5
I wish we could do a comparison of the BEST Siena teams ever (maybe in the off season!) but this is reality now —the 2023-2024 Siena men’s basketball team will likely go down as the worst team in their 48 year division 1 history (first year 1976-77) 1995-96 5-22, 1-13 MAAC Point difference -240 2004-25 6-24, 4-14 MAAC Point difference -267 2012-13 8-24, 4-14 Point difference -269 2017-18 8-24, 4-14 Point difference -240 2023-24 4-22, 3-12 Point difference -366 The 04-05, 12-13 and 17-18 were all very bad teams but close metrically together. The only other team that is similar to this one is 95-96 which also had similarities of virtually no talent. They of course played less games back then. The school record for D1 losses is 24 (3 times) that will easily be surpassed with at least 6 games left. It’s also likely Siena will finish -400 in point differential when they’ve never finished -300 ever before. KenPom: (Started in 2001-02) 2004-05: 285 2012-13: 298 2017-18: 303 2023-24: 359 This Siena team is now 2-10 at HOME and lost 9 straight at MVP arena. Out scored by 166 points. The 95-96 team had two wins by 10 points or more. The 04-05 team had 1. The 12-13 team had 1. The 17-18 had 1. This team has none. Also 04-05 had eventual stars (Kojo Mensah, Jack McClinton, Al Fisher and Tay Fisher, Scoop Jordan and Tommy Mitchell) … 12-13 all-MAAC Brett Bisping/Rob Poole) and 17-18 Roman Penn and Manny Camper. The MAAC also was a lot better in 1996/2004/2012/2018. The verdict is in this is the worst basketball team in program history and one of the worst in MAAC history. Mike I didn’t mean to downplay the work you put in here with my comment. However, as OI stated every time we go into a game the weakness is glaring, recruiting, player development and in game coaching are evidently not up to the task at hand. Thankfully this will all be behind us once the teams assemble in AC and the correction should begin immediately after Siena’s ouster from the tournament. It remains to be seen how deep the knife will cut but big changes are needed as we can all see week in and week out.
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legacy
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Post by legacy on Feb 19, 2024 8:30:04 GMT -5
Mike -great work on the data- why not send it to the President and board? It is proof of incompetence and the abysmal slide to the worst ever "product'...
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brian
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Post by brian on Feb 19, 2024 8:52:29 GMT -5
Official NCAA rankings as of this morning. There are 362 D1 teams but only 351 are eligible for the national rankings. For whatever the reason they feel the need to exclude the teams that are transitioning to D1.
Turnover Margin -6.2 351st (DEAD LAST) Scoring Offense 60.3 349th Turnovers per game 16.3 348th Assist/Turnover ratio 0.65 348th Scoring Margin -14.8 347th Fast break points 4.69 347th Three point percentage 27.6 345th Effective field goal percentage 0.444 345th Bench points per game 11.81 341st Free throw percentage 64.4 340th Field goal percentage 39.7 337th
Things we do well:
Foul the other team, rebound our own missed shots, and blocking shots.
Fouls per game 15.3 57th Offensive rebounds per game 12.04 64th Blocks per game 4.3 69th
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Post by saints15 on Feb 19, 2024 10:06:58 GMT -5
Official NCAA rankings as of this morning. There are 362 D1 teams but only 351 are eligible for the national rankings. For whatever the reason they feel the need to exclude the teams that are transitioning to D1. Turnover Margin -6.2 351st (DEAD LAST) Scoring Offense 60.3 349th Turnovers per game 16.3 348th Assist/Turnover ratio 0.65 348th Scoring Margin -14.8 347th Fast break points 4.69 347th Three point percentage 27.6 345th Effective field goal percentage 0.444 345th Bench points per game 11.81 341st Free throw percentage 64.4 340th Field goal percentage 39.7 337th Things we do well: Foul the other team, rebound our own missed shots, and blocking shots. Fouls per game 15.3 57th Offensive rebounds per game 12.04 64th Blocks per game 4.3 69th Well at least we are a well rounded awful team! 🤦♂️
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billmurray
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Post by billmurray on Feb 19, 2024 11:01:23 GMT -5
Lack of talent and not coaching to the "strength" of the players. The latter is a tough assignment with this team, but the coach assembled this group so no sympathy here. A perfect storm of ineptitude on the part of the coaching staff. Maybe the coaching staff turnover was based on the departing coaches seeing where this was heading and bailed to save their reputations.
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siena77
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Post by siena77 on Feb 19, 2024 11:01:51 GMT -5
MTS, your premise is correct. Looking at it just on the feel of what we've been watching, the worst of the Beyer-Lanier teams at least had some talented players--they were just badly coached. The current team's talent level as a group is not mid-major worthy, and the coaching has just been awful.
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Post by MTS on Feb 19, 2024 12:47:39 GMT -5
MTS, your premise is correct. Looking at it just on the feel of what we've been watching, the worst of the Beyer-Lanier teams at least had some talented players--they were just badly coached. The current team's talent level as a group is not mid-major worthy, and the coaching has just been awful. Lanier had a lot of talent just could not balance his classes. He had 5 frosh guards his last year— all MAAC, all ACC, MAC POY and the “worst” one scorched Rider for the MAAC title and Vanderbilt and the NCAA tournament. Beyer’s talent most came his last year— Faison, Cantamessa, Osinski who were frosh. Not to take anything away from the other guys on the team honored yesterday but Bennerman was so good. That team might have been a dangerous NCAA tournament team with more talent around him instead they still have a phenomenal year —25 wins and NIT final four trip (when the NIT had more juice). Deane left at the right time. The 95-96 team had very little talent but probably more than this team. Still coaching matters no matter the talent. Deane wouldn’t have gone 5-22 with that team and a better coaching job from Carm this team wouldn’t be 4-22. No talent + bad coaching = epic disaster A lot of talent + good coaching = Great season
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musicman
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Post by musicman on Feb 19, 2024 14:10:02 GMT -5
it does matter- the cold hard facts lend credence to the fact that change is necessary....as i posted bf Carm is on track to have the most losses in program history. By the largest margins of defeat. THAT is a fact too....He's on track for a sad, sad record On another note I enjoyed listening/watching Deane banter with the crowd while lauding his team... Oh what a dichotomy between him and Carm... I’m not sure the snowflakes and coddllers could handle a coach like Deane in today’s world. I’d love a coach like Deane again. I would love to see him try!
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