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Post by greengold4ever on Jan 16, 2018 14:14:48 GMT -5
People can spin the last 4 years in a number of ways. Some will say Siena had 1 winning regular season in 4 years and no "N" Tournaments with lots of roster turnover. Others will say 3 top 5 finishes in 4 years, 2 seasons near the top of the nation in win total turnaround, a MAAC championship game bid, 6 games over .500 in MAAC play over that 4 year stretch, a CBI title, and most importantly having a 5 man senior class all graduate and send 4 to professional basketball. Year 1 was an A. Year 2 was a D due to the injuries. Year 3 was probably a B+ Year 4 was a C? That's definitely the biggest one for debate (could probably go anywhere from D to B depending on expectations) Year 5 is probably a D. There's a case there that with the 6th-most youthful team in the country per KenPom this year that he deserves one more year (as long as this team gets to say 6 MAAC wins) to try and make one more run at it, especially with the money owed. I think Siena SHOULD step up and say that more mediocrity shouldn't be tolerated and fire him, but I can understand why they could try to keep him. I think many have criticized JP's tenure too much, just like him it's been pretty so-so, not that bad but certainly not that good. It's going to come down to whether Siena thinks they can afford the buyout and whether Siena thinks they can afford to keep him with the potential loss in sponsors/ticket sales. sure, but just forget the youthful team argument..........he created that by mis-managing his recruiting, player defections, etc........no sugar coating that..........
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Jan 16, 2018 14:15:45 GMT -5
Siena is a unique bird at this level.. I think if you did a poll of ALL Sports throughout the MAAC, very few teams turn any sort of profit. College athletics at this level is not a "for profit" business like the big boys are... Siena is unique in the money and interest they are able to pull from the area. I don't think anyone is saying or expecting women's hoop, the soccer teams, softball team to make money, but they are all part of the saints family and get support from these donors... No MAAC sports - including basketball - turn a profit at any school. That includes Siena. Data is provided by the school. Then get rid of all sports. Why waste all that scholarship money and coaching salaries for a guaranteed financial loss? Those students going to school for free could be replaced by kids willing to spend $50, 000 a year to attend.
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Post by MTS on Jan 16, 2018 14:24:45 GMT -5
People can spin the last 4 years in a number of ways. Some will say Siena had 1 winning regular season in 4 years and no "N" Tournaments with lots of roster turnover. Others will say 3 top 5 finishes in 4 years, 2 seasons near the top of the nation in win total turnaround, a MAAC championship game bid, 6 games over .500 in MAAC play over that 4 year stretch, a CBI title, and most importantly having a 5 man senior class all graduate and send 4 to professional basketball. Year 1 was an A. Year 2 was a D due to the injuries. Year 3 was probably a B+ Year 4 was a C? That's definitely the biggest one for debate (could probably go anywhere from D to B depending on expectations) Year 5 is probably a D. There's a case there that with the 6th-most youthful team in the country per KenPom this year that he deserves one more year (as long as this team gets to say 6 MAAC wins) to try and make one more run at it, especially with the money owed. I think Siena SHOULD step up and say that more mediocrity shouldn't be tolerated and fire him, but I can understand why they could try to keep him. I think many have criticized JP's tenure too much, just like him it's been pretty so-so, not that bad but certainly not that good. It's going to come down to whether Siena thinks they can afford the buyout and whether Siena thinks they can afford to keep him with the potential loss in sponsors/ticket sales. Year 1 A - (very good year considering expectations even without the CBI) Year 2 D - (Injuries but mismanaged the team and Cole back fired badly) Year 3 B (Team had solid regular season but stumbled down the stretch) Year 4 F (Made MAAC finals but the rest of the year was a joke with four seniors) Year 5 F (Ran off best player and is tied for last in league) Maybe I'm a hard marker but that's how I see it... overall grade D If you bring him back (let's say Siena finishes with 10 wins overall and 6 in the league) and next year he goes 17-15 he'll be pounding the drum of "I have no seniors (outside of Fisher)" - everyone returns - "I need more time!". Plus we have potentially another season of chaos. No thanks to that. When does it end? Now is the time to pull the plug and start the REAL REBUILDING!
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Post by goldsaint17 on Jan 16, 2018 14:37:59 GMT -5
People can spin the last 4 years in a number of ways. Some will say Siena had 1 winning regular season in 4 years and no "N" Tournaments with lots of roster turnover. Others will say 3 top 5 finishes in 4 years, 2 seasons near the top of the nation in win total turnaround, a MAAC championship game bid, 6 games over .500 in MAAC play over that 4 year stretch, a CBI title, and most importantly having a 5 man senior class all graduate and send 4 to professional basketball. Year 1 was an A. Year 2 was a D due to the injuries. Year 3 was probably a B+ Year 4 was a C? That's definitely the biggest one for debate (could probably go anywhere from D to B depending on expectations) Year 5 is probably a D. There's a case there that with the 6th-most youthful team in the country per KenPom this year that he deserves one more year (as long as this team gets to say 6 MAAC wins) to try and make one more run at it, especially with the money owed. I think Siena SHOULD step up and say that more mediocrity shouldn't be tolerated and fire him, but I can understand why they could try to keep him. I think many have criticized JP's tenure too much, just like him it's been pretty so-so, not that bad but certainly not that good. It's going to come down to whether Siena thinks they can afford the buyout and whether Siena thinks they can afford to keep him with the potential loss in sponsors/ticket sales. sure, but just forget the youthful team argument..........he created that by mis-managing his recruiting, player defections, etc........no sugar coating that.......... In part, that's true. But it's tough to recruit when they see no path to the starting lineup for 2-3 years and those that do come may transfer. Would it help to have a rotation with guys like Wormley and Kinnon in it right now? Maybe. They are no more talented than the guys we have now but just two years older. Kinnon's situation was a disaster. Wormley wanted to go because he didn't like that Patsos was still recruiting guards and that he'd never be the star. 2 years later he's averaging the same amount of points in about the same minutes at a team we beat. Meanwhile, the elite shooter Kinnon is shooting 34% from 3 and averaging a whopping 8 points per game at a bad NEC school. There were obviously recruiting mistakes in that stretch and some run-offs had to happen as a result. Bottom line is he had 2 big classes last year and this year (2016 and 2017 classes) and he didn't hit enough. Penn and Prince are good. Richard, Friday, Shivers, Horn, and Huerter can be rotation players in the right situation. But he needed a star to play next to Nico, and whether that came as a freshman like a Anthony Lamb or Terry Nolan or in the form of a sit-out transfer from a big school (Smithen and Degnan were obviously big disappointments) and he never landed that guy. That, and his inability to get Nico to play in a team construct and turn him into a bona-fide star, will likely what leads to his firing.
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mjs72
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Post by mjs72 on Jan 16, 2018 14:44:43 GMT -5
People can spin the last 4 years in a number of ways. Some will say Siena had 1 winning regular season in 4 years and no "N" Tournaments with lots of roster turnover. Others will say 3 top 5 finishes in 4 years, 2 seasons near the top of the nation in win total turnaround, a MAAC championship game bid, 6 games over .500 in MAAC play over that 4 year stretch, a CBI title, and most importantly having a 5 man senior class all graduate and send 4 to professional basketball. Year 1 was an A. Year 2 was a D due to the injuries. Year 3 was probably a B+ Year 4 was a C? That's definitely the biggest one for debate (could probably go anywhere from D to B depending on expectations) Year 5 is probably a D. There's a case there that with the 6th-most youthful team in the country per KenPom this year that he deserves one more year (as long as this team gets to say 6 MAAC wins) to try and make one more run at it, especially with the money owed. I think Siena SHOULD step up and say that more mediocrity shouldn't be tolerated and fire him, but I can understand why they could try to keep him. I think many have criticized JP's tenure too much, just like him it's been pretty so-so, not that bad but certainly not that good. It's going to come down to whether Siena thinks they can afford the buyout and whether Siena thinks they can afford to keep him with the potential loss in sponsors/ticket sales. Year 1 A - (very good year considering expectations even without the CBI) Year 2 D - (Injuries but mismanaged the team and Cole back fired badly) Year 3 B (Team had solid regular season but stumbled down the stretch) Year 4 F (Made MAAC finals but the rest of the year was a joke with four seniors) Year 5 F (Ran off best player and is tied for last in league) Maybe I'm a hard marker but that's how I see it... overall grade D If you bring him back (let's say Siena finishes with 10 wins overall and 6 in the league) and next year he goes 17-15 he'll be pounding the drum of "I have no seniors (outside of Fisher)" - everyone returns - "I need more time!". Plus we have potentially another season of chaos. No thanks to that. When does it end? Now is the time to pull the plug and start the REAL REBUILDING! Correction: Our "best player" ran himself off.
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Jan 16, 2018 14:56:55 GMT -5
I'm going to jump into this why do some people keep blaming him for the Nico situation.I'm not sticking up for him but i think some should probably get of that one.And I'm not going to put blame on either I'm just going to say let that one go.There's a reason it's been quiet on that .Plus every coach makes mistake in recruiting and you get lucky also.It's just you can't have to many bad one's on this level.And it seems like he has,the reality is he's more then likely coming back.And he's decided to put more effort in recruiting this go around.And the running off of players stuff if it's true wouldn't you want more scholarships to offer too players that can help you then ones who aren't.If that's the case because i bet you one thing.If he lands 3-4 solid players with those scholarships and turns it around.No-one and i mean no-one would be giving a rats a about those guys that left.Probably wouldn't even remember there name.That's real
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Post by greengold4ever on Jan 16, 2018 14:56:58 GMT -5
sure, but just forget the youthful team argument..........he created that by mis-managing his recruiting, player defections, etc........no sugar coating that.......... In part, that's true. But it's tough to recruit when they see no path to the starting lineup for 2-3 years and those that do come may transfer. Would it help to have a rotation with guys like Wormley and Kinnon in it right now? Maybe. They are no more talented than the guys we have now but just two years older. Kinnon's situation was a disaster. Wormley wanted to go because he didn't like that Patsos was still recruiting guards and that he'd never be the star. 2 years later he's averaging the same amount of points in about the same minutes at a team we beat. Meanwhile, the elite shooter Kinnon is shooting 34% from 3 and averaging a whopping 8 points per game at a bad NEC school. There were obviously recruiting mistakes in that stretch and some run-offs had to happen as a result. Bottom line is he had 2 big classes last year and this year (2016 and 2017 classes) and he didn't hit enough. Penn and Prince are good. Richard, Friday, Shivers, Horn, and Huerter can be rotation players in the right situation. But he needed a star to play next to Nico, and whether that came as a freshman like a Anthony Lamb or Terry Nolan or in the form of a sit-out transfer from a big school (Smithen and Degnan were obviously big disappointments) and he never landed that guy. That, and his inability to get Nico to play in a team construct and turn him into a bona-fide star, will likely what leads to his firing. it could possibly be a number of factors for JP's recruiting....................first, he may not be that great a talent evaluator (way too many swings & misses), then he has a narrow scope of area's he tends to recruit & leads to limiting his potential to reach for talent (DMV area, but mostly 3rd tier type kids), also recruits know about him and just don't want to play for him (losing many to Vermont), then you have the casual approach at times to the recruiting process (rather be on vacation then entertain recruits coming to campus, um Nash)................anyway you slice that, it won't matter as you say, as he isn't getting the type of recruits to build a winner and save his skin..................
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Post by greengold4ever on Jan 16, 2018 15:00:59 GMT -5
I'm going to jump into this why do some people keep blaming him for the Nico situation.I'm not sticking up for him but i think some should probably get of that one.And I'm not going to put blame on either I'm just going to say let that one go.There's a reason it's been quiet on that .Plus every coach makes mistake in recruiting and you get lucky also.It's just you can't have to many bad one's on this level.And it seems like he has,the reality is he's more then likely coming back.And he's decided to put more effort in recruiting this go around.And the running off of players stuff if it's true wouldn't you want more scholarships to offer too players that can help you then ones who aren't.If that's the case because i bet you one thing. If he lands 3-4 solid players with those scholarships and turns it around.No-one and i mean no-one would be giving a rats a about those guys that left.Probably wouldn't even remember there name.That's real I only pose this back to you............what makes you think him getting more solid players that he can move forward, and to what level? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) .............again, he had 4 (1,000pt scorers) plus Nico, and could not get to the promised land............are you thinking this next group of recruits are going to be better than them? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ??...and do you wait 4 yrs for that class to blossom? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?........just playing devil's advocate to that.........
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Jan 16, 2018 15:13:26 GMT -5
I had a feeling that would come into question.Ok here i go I'll try to defend that.And by the way JP owes me some kind of compensation for this defense😉.Ok nothings guaranteed but you would just hope and pray🙏that he's learned something from mistakes.Those other 4 1000point scorers from people didn't gel from reports.From what I've heard and seen this younger group does.And when you have guys that gel it becomes infectious contagious what ever world.So you bring those players that can contribute right way into that type of environment it helps.That's just my opinion and defense man i gotta get on the offensive side.I'm not getting paid enough for this.
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Post by greenblood on Jan 16, 2018 15:15:26 GMT -5
I'm going to jump into this why do some people keep blaming him for the Nico situation.I'm not sticking up for him but i think some should probably get of that one.And I'm not going to put blame on either I'm just going to say let that one go.There's a reason it's been quiet on that .Plus every coach makes mistake in recruiting and you get lucky also.It's just you can't have to many bad one's on this level.And it seems like he has,the reality is he's more then likely coming back.And he's decided to put more effort in recruiting this go around.And the running off of players stuff if it's true wouldn't you want more scholarships to offer too players that can help you then ones who aren't.If that's the case because i bet you one thing. If he lands 3-4 solid players with those scholarships and turns it around.No-one and i mean no-one would be giving a rats a about those guys that left.Probably wouldn't even remember there name.That's real I only pose this back to you............what makes you think him getting more solid players that he can move forward, and to what level? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) .............again, he had 4 (1,000pt scorers) plus Nico, and could not get to the promised land............are you thinking this next group of recruits are going to be better than them? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ??...and do you wait 4 yrs for that class to blossom? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?........just playing devil's advocate to that......... Correct; he still has to manage them and develop them...don't see it happening
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Jan 16, 2018 15:19:32 GMT -5
No MAAC sports - including basketball - turn a profit at any school. That includes Siena. Data is provided by the school. Then get rid of all sports. Why waste all that scholarship money and coaching salaries for a guaranteed financial loss? Those students going to school for free could be replaced by kids willing to spend $50, 000 a year to attend. Don't forget not all athletes go to school for free..... at siena some have partial scholarships, some have nothing at all besides some additional financial aid or grants. Athletics are part of a well-rounded student body. even the most intellectually challenging schools in the country have a robust athletic department, not for the financial windfall, but for the health of the school/student body as a whole.
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Post by greenblood on Jan 16, 2018 15:21:50 GMT -5
very good point siena95; in fact, I would like to know exactly what teams get a total free ride at Siena because I am betting it might only be a very limited number and I am pretty sure golf isn't one of them.
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Papi
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Post by Papi on Jan 16, 2018 16:10:58 GMT -5
very good point siena95; in fact, I would like to know exactly what teams get a total free ride at Siena because I am betting it might only be a very limited number and I am pretty sure golf isn't one of them. Golf probably gets 5 scholarships and they can split them up how ever they want. Activity fees from other students cover many scholarships.
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Post by SaintsFan on Jan 16, 2018 16:37:35 GMT -5
I'm going to jump into this why do some people keep blaming him for the Nico situation.I'm not sticking up for him but i think some should probably get of that one.And I'm not going to put blame on either I'm just going to say let that one go.There's a reason it's been quiet on that .Plus every coach makes mistake in recruiting and you get lucky also.It's just you can't have to many bad one's on this level.And it seems like he has,the reality is he's more then likely coming back.And he's decided to put more effort in recruiting this go around.And the running off of players stuff if it's true wouldn't you want more scholarships to offer too players that can help you then ones who aren't.If that's the case because i bet you one thing.If he lands 3-4 solid players with those scholarships and turns it around.No-one and i mean no-one would be giving a rats a about those guys that left.Probably wouldn't even remember there name.That's real it isnt just the "Nico situation." Its just about ALL of recruiting. How many departures. I stopped counting. Someone post them. It is the bigger picture of his body of work. People dont get it... you can explain away this situation then that situation and another situation and another. Eventually... it just simply isnt working. and NO... not every school is dealing with this kind of situation. Go try and work in another field and screw up one thing and make an excuse then another and another and another... Eventually youre out on your ass and rightfully so. it just isnt working.
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Post by greengold4ever on Jan 16, 2018 16:39:57 GMT -5
I had a feeling that would come into question.Ok here i go I'll try to defend that.And by the way JP owes me some kind of compensation for this defense😉.Ok nothings guaranteed but you would just hope and pray🙏that he's learned something from mistakes.Those other 4 1000point scorers from people didn't gel from reports.From what I've heard and seen this younger group does.And when you have guys that gel it becomes infectious contagious what ever world.So you bring those players that can contribute right way into that type of environment it helps.That's just my opinion and defense man i gotta get on the offensive side.I'm not getting paid enough for this. if you had to choose either "talent" or "gel-ling"................I think we know which you would take............role players are great, but you need "difference makers" to get to the top..........certainly no slight on the group we have, but to what time frame do we wait for them to develop, 4 more yrs because they aren't winning next yr either.......................man that is very hard to defend, sorry.............
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