SaintMisbehavin
Team Captain
Legacy. Alum. Hoops Lover. Hyper-Niche Amateur Blog Runner
Posts: 2,433
Dislikes:
|
Post by SaintMisbehavin on Oct 1, 2013 10:18:13 GMT -5
While Syracuse and Siena start the season at opposite ends of the college hoops spectrum - one coming off a Final Four appearance, the other off a record-tying amount of losses in a season - their team make-ups are surprisngly similar: Both will start Freshman point guards Both have question marks and are young at the SG position, likely platooning the position until someone rises to win starters' minutes. Both have a five man Freshman class - and both MAY BE redshirting a low-post player in those Freshman classes. Chinonso Obokoh, 6'10" Freshman from Rochester (by way of Nigeria) will be red-shirting. Obokoh did deal with an injury most of his senior year, which may have stunted his expected development. Obokoh is only one of four legit big men on Cuse's roster - similar to Siena's situation. I would expect to see them play CJ Fair and Jerami Grant together at three and four positions to be sure they maximize their talent-to-length ratio. I'd expect Siena to employ a similar strategy with Rob Poole and Lavon Long. Obokoh's high school team went head-to-head with JO's Troy team in the State tourney this year - although Kearney won the game, statistically JO significantly outmatched Obokoh (admittedly I did not see the game, basing on box score). SU Freshman Big to Red Shirt
|
|
hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 12,505
Dislikes:
|
Post by hoopjunkie on Oct 1, 2013 12:06:49 GMT -5
'12-'13....Syracuse: Final Four, Siena: 8-24 NOT the same thing. The "other" four freshman Syracuse is bringing are: #22 (Ennis), #31 (Roberson), #82 (Johnson) and the #131 (Patterson) ranked players in the country. Two HS All-American sophomores ready to break out (Grant and Cooney) along with 3 LEGIT, PROVEN bigs: Moussa-Keita SR. 6'10" center, Christmas 6'9" JR center, and McDonalds All-American soph center DeJaun Coleman.
With that group, 'Cuse can afford to redshirt a local (Rochester) project like Obokoh.
We need to win back a fan base, and need all the help we can get! Even if it's 5 min a game!
|
|
SaintMisbehavin
Team Captain
Legacy. Alum. Hoops Lover. Hyper-Niche Amateur Blog Runner
Posts: 2,433
Dislikes:
|
Post by SaintMisbehavin on Oct 1, 2013 12:26:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure how your 10th-11th man's 5 minutes per game wins back a fan base.
As I said...opposite ends of the spectrum, but still many of the same situations/scenarios.
I'm glad you expect Cooney to have a breakout year (I hope he does) and for All-American Center DaJuan Coleman to produce, but in reality those guys look like massive question marks. Coleman looks slimmed down but still not at a level to produce in relation to his All-American accolades. The fact is, in each case there are three post players above them in the rotation, and long wing players also eating into their potential playing time, it's as simple as that.
The Siena player in question red-shirting subject has been beaten to death in another thread, and I'm over expressing my opinion on it. All I'll say is if he does play, I hope he dazzles this year.
|
|
gorvy
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 10,021
Dislikes:
|
Post by gorvy on Oct 1, 2013 17:49:23 GMT -5
I agree with hoop junkie. A completely different scenario. Siena needs all the wins they can get-- you can only fool the fan base so long--- and if that unnamed player gives us two more home wins it will be well wiorth it.
|
|
hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 12,505
Dislikes:
|
Post by hoopjunkie on Oct 2, 2013 0:13:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure how your 10th-11th man's 5 minutes per game wins back a fan base. As I said...opposite ends of the spectrum, but still many of the same situations/scenarios. I'm glad you expect Cooney to have a breakout year (I hope he does) and for All-American Center DaJuan Coleman to produce, but in reality those guys look like massive question marks. Coleman looks slimmed down but still not at a level to produce in relation to his All-American accolades. The fact is, in each case there are three post players above them in the rotation, and long wing players also eating into their potential playing time, it's as simple as that. The Siena player in question red-shirting subject has been beaten to death in another thread, and I'm over expressing my opinion on it. All I'll say is if he does play, I hope he dazzles this year. Loved Cooney in HS and with all those minutes opening up, he will play a big role for the Orange this year. Coleman will play in the league when he leaves Syracuse. Boeheim has three very, very good 4/5 guys so he can afford to redshirt a big. We don't. We don't have one sure thing upfront. Everyone of them has big question marks, and are unproven. For all we know, Wolfe could end up being our best big come the MAAC tourney. Not a real stretch is it? I know exactly what Wolfe can do for us in a suit every game....NOTHING. He dresses, he could surprise everyone and be a real contributor. Worse case he supplies emergency back-up for us and plays a few minutes a game and will be better prepared for next years team. 8-24 teams, with no seniors, and expect success as much as our fanbase does, can't afford to redshirt anyone.
|
|
SaintMisbehavin
Team Captain
Legacy. Alum. Hoops Lover. Hyper-Niche Amateur Blog Runner
Posts: 2,433
Dislikes:
|
Post by SaintMisbehavin on Oct 2, 2013 7:42:02 GMT -5
Thanks for participating in the conversation guys, while I respectfully disagree I totally understand your viewpoint.
Please recognize that a redshirted player does dress for games. In fact, a decision on redshirting does not need to be made at the beginning of the season. Some programs announce a redshirt at the start of a season to let a player understand the situation, so that they don't get their hopes up for getting playing time during the season. But, you can have them dress, and can play them at ANY time you'd need them. The point is, they'd lose the opportunity to redshirt as soon as they play a second in a non-exhibition game.
I'm in no way arguing that the caliber of Cuse/Siena big men is similar, but I am saying that in both instances you still have three big guys, and versatile wings, ahead of the proposed redshirt on the depth chart eating your minutes. Again, if he does play this year, I hope he is ready to contribute in a significant way (and I wouldn't consider getting 5 minutes a game as significant). I think Wolfe would be much more beneficial in 5 years as the team's lone senior, potentially ready to be an all-MAAC player, than the benefit he would get from winning 10th-11th man minutes this season (especially since Jimmy's adamant about his 8-9 guys). Allowing him to sit lets you balance classes (class of '17 will have 6 with Cole and Wolfe), and allows a big man to develop physically, which seems to be the ONE knock against him, and a redshirt year would allow him to approve upon that. His benefit as an older, stronger big is much higher than his present in-game benefit to this team.
Back to Cuse: I know Cooney can shoot, and have heard the stories from practice of him hitting an ungodly amount of threes. For a shooter with such a reputation as a sniper, though, he still has moments when he throws up an air ball, and you wonder about his in-game toughness. I expect him to have extremely good games this year, but will ultimately be a little streaky.
Which League will Coleman play in after he's done in Syracuse? I'd love to take that bet right now :-) I hope he turns it around this year a la Fab Melo his sophomore year. But he may end up not even being the most gifted player that was on his high school team.
The Freshman class looks strong - Ennis will certainly experience growing pains, but looks like the real deal. Haven't had an opportunity to see Roberson yet but he sounds like he fits right into the 6'7" mould of Cuse wings that terrorize the 2-3.
|
|
hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 12,505
Dislikes:
|
Post by hoopjunkie on Oct 2, 2013 16:27:15 GMT -5
IF you redshirt Wolfe, he wouldn't be Class of '17, he'd be Class of '18. Players that are redshirting do not dress for games. Can the team wait a few games before deciding? Yes, and he can even play in a couple of "real" games but still maintain the ability to redshirt (I beleive its based on a percentage of games played....I'd think 3 is the max, and it would have to be before Thanksgiving) As long as Coleman stays away from major injury and any forseeable eating disorders, he'll play in the NBA. You do know he was a McDonalds AA right? You was bette than him on J-D? The kid Siena was involved with that ended up at WF? Coleman DID start all 19 games he played in before his knee injury. He's way better than you think, obviously. And of course ANY player would be better at age 23 than they are at 18. Guess we're all hoping we'll be involved with better kids than Wolfe in 4 years? Oh yeah, and why do we need him? We have those "ALL-MAAC types" in Silas and Bisping gonna carry us!
|
|
gorvy
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 10,021
Dislikes:
|
Post by gorvy on Oct 2, 2013 17:11:34 GMT -5
Again, I agree. It also ignores the opportunity cost of not having the scholaarship available in 2018 Plus, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the player either as these are not NBA players. It is deferring a prime earning year in an overseas league, and more importantly deferring their career path after sports. Throw in the fact that this ploy has not been successful in the history of Siena (not once has a red-shirt player led a team to an NCAA win) the whole idea makes little sense. A point of clarification though, a player can redshirt after playing in a few games only if the player is then injured for the rest of the season. For a non-injured player, once the player steps on the court for one second, the possibility of red-shirting is over. So, technically, the decision is not made until the end of the year but I expect Patsos to put him in the rotation as he see fits, right from the beginning. If he plans a red shirt in the first year of a rebuild it would be a puzzling move imo.
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Oct 2, 2013 17:38:09 GMT -5
That's not correct-- what you are thinking of Hoopjunkie is a medical redshirt-- you can play in a certain pct of your teams games usually no more than 5 games and still get a redshirt. A academic redshirt- can dress for every home game-- every road game but he cannot play 1 second in a game, if he does he loses the opportunity to apply for a redshirt.
BTW I think Wolfe is the 5th best big on the team right now. Silas Long and JO are definitely better - I would expect with a year in the weight room Wolfe would be better than Bisping next year. If Jimmy thinks Wolfe is in top 3 or 4 bigs then I'm sure he will play this year-- and again no decision on that has to be made until season starts. So If Wolfe plays well enough he will play this year --- remember big men ( over 6'9") seldom are ready to play at the MAAC level. you can count on one hand how many have over last 20 years
|
|
hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 12,505
Dislikes:
|
Post by hoopjunkie on Oct 2, 2013 22:22:36 GMT -5
That's not correct-- what you are thinking of Hoopjunkie is a medical redshirt-- you can play in a certain pct of your teams games usually no more than 5 games and still get a redshirt. A academic redshirt- can dress for every home game-- every road game but he cannot play 1 second in a game, if he does he loses the opportunity to apply for a redshirt. BTW I think Wolfe is the 5th best big on the team right now. Silas Long and JO are definitely better - I would expect with a year in the weight room Wolfe would be better than Bisping next year. If Jimmy thinks Wolfe is in top 3 or 4 bigs then I'm sure he will play this year-- and again no decision on that has to be made until season starts. So If Wolfe plays well enough he will play this year --- remember big men ( over 6'9") seldom are ready to play at the MAAC level. you can count on one hand how many have over last 20 years I've never seen a "academic redshirt" in my life. They may be more common in D-1 football with injuries are the norm and you may need a kid because the two guys in front of him got injured, but in basketball? I've never seen a kid "dress" if had no chance to play. (if you've seen it, let me know when). As for the medical one, if a team decides early on that a kid would be better off redshirting even if he already played a few games, an injury is invented and the kid goes thru the BS NCAA process and gets the extra year. IF Wolfe isn't better than Bisping right now, we shouldn't have taken him, and NO, I've never seen Wolfe play, but there's soemthing wrong with being concerned about getting a freshman an extra year that can't outplay benchwarmers from a 8-24 team.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 3:45:59 GMT -5
Well there is no doubt where hoopjunkie stands on this issue.
|
|
|
Post by playerparentcoach on Oct 3, 2013 7:14:50 GMT -5
Patsos recruited Wolfe for Loyola with a redshirt option. Patsos has redshirted several players while at Loyola. The latest was Josh Forney that sat out last year. He practiced traveled and dressed for every game. Forney is 6'8 and ready to earn minutes this season. Patsos is known for his honesty and integrity. The deal was already made before he commited to Siena. My guess is that Wolfe will decide after he sees where he fits in the rotation.
I agree that 5 min per game is not enough time to use a year. I too Believe Wolfe would level out the classes just as Cole playing this year will do... Wolfe will be bigger and better next year and possibly All MAAC senior year IMOP
|
|
hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 12,505
Dislikes:
|
Post by hoopjunkie on Oct 3, 2013 10:35:10 GMT -5
Patsos recruited Wolfe for Loyola with a redshirt option. Patsos has redshirted several players while at Loyola. The latest was Josh Forney that sat out last year. He practiced traveled and dressed for every game. Forney is 6'8 and ready to earn minutes this season. Patsos is known for his honesty and integrity. The deal was already made before he commited to Siena. My guess is that Wolfe will decide after he sees where he fits in the rotation. I agree that 5 min per game is not enough time to use a year. I too Believe Wolfe would level out the classes just as Cole playing this year will do... Wolfe will be bigger and better next year and possibly All MAAC senior year IMOP Jimmy turns us around, and wins big, he won't be here to see Wolfes fifth year..... ....and teams that WIN 24 games, like Loyola did in '12, can afford the luxury of redshirting kids. Teams that have that much success, usually don't have many holes. Plus Forney would have been stuck behind a 1st team MAAC center, not Bisping
|
|
SaintMisbehavin
Team Captain
Legacy. Alum. Hoops Lover. Hyper-Niche Amateur Blog Runner
Posts: 2,433
Dislikes:
|
Post by SaintMisbehavin on Oct 3, 2013 11:05:34 GMT -5
HJ, you are stuck on the quality of the bigs above the player in the depth chart. If they are above the player in question, then you can assume they're above them for a reason - accolades or not. Whether Bisping is a pre-season All-American, or coming off a ho-hum Freshman campaign, if the coaching staff still thinks he is better and more prepared to contribute than a young-for-their-class, underweight Freshman at this time, then they will play more available minutes. If it looks like Wolfe will be higher up the depth chart than that, then fine, let him play from Day 1. I just don't see it happening, and certainly hope it isn't for 5 minutes a game. We're sort of past the Cuse aspect of this thread, but to clarify Coleman started 19 games for Syracuse because he was promised to start. He averaged about 12 minutes a game. Once Big East play started and the team was through with their cupcake OOC schedule, he'd play for 2 minutes, get yanked, and never get off the bench again unless there was foul trouble. I hope a year of conditioning will have him more prepared for this upcoming season. After all, some players require additional physical preparation before they're ready to contribute in meaningful ways
|
|
|
Post by playerparentcoach on Oct 3, 2013 13:14:16 GMT -5
HJ, you are stuck on the quality of the bigs above the player in the depth chart. If they are above the player in question, then you can assume they're above them for a reason - accolades or not. Whether Bisping is a pre-season All-American, or coming off a ho-hum Freshman campaign, if the coaching staff still thinks he is better and more prepared to contribute than a young-for-their-class, underweight Freshman at this time, then they will play more available minutes. If it looks like Wolfe will be higher up the depth chart than that, then fine, let him play from Day 1. I just don't see it happening, and certainly hope it isn't for 5 minutes a game. We're sort of past the Cuse aspect of this thread, but to clarify Coleman started 19 games for Syracuse because he was promised to start. He averaged about 12 minutes a game. Once Big East play started and the team was through with their cupcake OOC schedule, he'd play for 2 minutes, get yanked, and never get off the bench again unless there was foul trouble. I hope a year of conditioning will have him more prepared for this upcoming season. After all, some players require additional physical preparation before they're ready to contribute in meaningful ways I agree with you here....I also believe Patsos is more than likely to be here year five unless the MD job opens up
|
|