musicman
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Post by musicman on Feb 18, 2017 0:44:57 GMT -5
those days are over. I rode through Beyer Lanier and Mitch. At some point you decide to stop throwing good money after bad. Those attached to the school, i can understand your struggle. Many of you are business people and I find it very interesting to watch the dynamic. You people wouldnt continue to support a business that did business this way. If you owned a bar/restaurant ;-) how fast would you go under if you threw a shit product out to your customers most nights? For some reason this business is looked at differently. There is no accountability what so ever. and a LOT of money flowing. It's a business for the school to make money, but that has nothing to do with the support of real fans that love the team, win or lose. We're not Duke where winning is always part of the equation. We cant keep a Fran here for 30 years and win 25 games every year. Doesn't exist on this level. You dont think there's diehard fans at Rider, Marist, St. Peters etc.....that want to win every year too?? What do they do? Wait 10-20 years before they win consistently win before they support the team? Our mega-success years ago has ruined the expectations of most out here. It's the "Yankees attitude." Who, if you ask their fansm they should win the WS every year. It's their right? Mike Trout and Bryce Harper should be in pinstripes because we deserve them?? Going to all the home games is very affordable for 95% of people that follow the team. The few hundred dollars necessary for season tickets wont put anyone in the poor house, and if does, dont go. You dont like the product, dont sit mid-court where you feel like you're not getting your moneys worth. Sit off the baseline. Support the team out here, or by watching on the TV, computer whatever. Why cant "fans" just support the kids playing? You can hate the AD, the HC all you want. But dont the student/athletes at Siena deserve that support? We've got people out here talking out both sides of their faces saying I'm out of line if I rip a senior for missing lay-ups, YET they wont go to the games because it's a "business?" Which is it? WOW, was that well said! You nailed it. I understand fan frustration but you can't have it both ways.
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musicman
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Post by musicman on Feb 18, 2017 0:53:52 GMT -5
The not so fearsome foursome of Fisher, Richard, Shivers, and Smithen combined for 38 minutes with 8 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 0 blocks, 7 turnovers, and 5 fouls. Not much better than the Monmouth game. contrary to what many believe.............not essential that you get a ton from them, just solid D, make some plays and if offense presents itself then great, but we have enough fire power from the core 5 to win games ...........it is the defense that is our biggest culprit..........and JP's crazy sub patterns, you can't have 3 bench guys in at the same time..............ugh................ Richard obviously hasn't got back into any rhythm since being out with that ankle injury. It's a shame, he was starting to really show something and getting comfortable. I hope our freshmen work hard on their shooting this summer. We're going to need it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 6:29:42 GMT -5
It's a business for the school to make money, but that has nothing to do with the support of real fans that love the team, win or lose. We're not Duke where winning is always part of the equation. We cant keep a Fran here for 30 years and win 25 games every year. Doesn't exist on this level. You dont think there's diehard fans at Rider, Marist, St. Peters etc.....that want to win every year too?? What do they do? Wait 10-20 years before they win consistently win before they support the team? Our mega-success years ago has ruined the expectations of most out here. It's the "Yankees attitude." Who, if you ask their fansm they should win the WS every year. It's their right? Mike Trout and Bryce Harper should be in pinstripes because we deserve them?? Going to all the home games is very affordable for 95% of people that follow the team. The few hundred dollars necessary for season tickets wont put anyone in the poor house, and if does, dont go. You dont like the product, dont sit mid-court where you feel like you're not getting your moneys worth. Sit off the baseline. Support the team out here, or by watching on the TV, computer whatever. Why cant "fans" just support the kids playing? You can hate the AD, the HC all you want. But dont the student/athletes at Siena deserve that support? We've got people out here talking out both sides of their faces saying I'm out of line if I rip a senior for missing lay-ups, YET they wont go to the games because it's a "business?" Which is it? WOW, was that well said! You nailed it. I understand fan frustration but you can't have it both ways. HJ did nail it - one problem, as I see it, is the constant translation of "I don't like this HC's work ethic/behaviors" into the equivalent of "I hate this team" - it's just not the case. It's a pure deflection away from the criticism of the HC into a negative alternative reality encompassing the school and the team/kids. My support has dwindled to where I no longer contribute to Saints Alive (giving up the pre-game Keeler get together isn't noticed by the team but it was noticed by the AD) but I do maintain my season tickets and go to as many road games as possible. One major change in my love of Siena has resulted - for the second year in a row we went to Florida for 17 days - in all of the previous years there was no way I'd go anywhere during the season. I can watch every game from the warmth of Florida without enduring the internal warmth of watching JP in person - he just doesn't get that much coverage during the game - a big bonus!
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Feb 18, 2017 7:16:20 GMT -5
WOW, was that well said! You nailed it. I understand fan frustration but you can't have it both ways. HJ did nail it - one problem, as I see it, is the constant translation of "I don't like this HC's work ethic/behaviors" into the equivalent of "I hate this team" - it's just not the case. It's a pure deflection away from the criticism of the HC into a negative alternative reality encompassing the school and the team/kids. My support has dwindled to where I no longer contribute to Saints Alive (giving up the pre-game Keeler get together isn't noticed by the team but it was noticed by the AD) but I do maintain my season tickets and go to as many road games as possible. One major change in my love of Siena has resulted - for the second year in a row we went to Florida for 17 days - in all of the previous years there was no way I'd go anywhere during the season. I can watch every game from the warmth of Florida without enduring the internal warmth of watching JP in person - he just doesn't get that much coverage during the game - a big bonus! Yes HJ did nail it. Few thoughts though. If your reading this than your a Siena fan who cares about, loves the program and support the program. D1is a business, if you put a poor product on the floor, your attendance will go down, marketing 101. Should we blame the players? Not sure. But who recruited them. Who is suppose to develop them. Who hired the coach and staff that is was suppose to develop recruit and coach the kids through the games. Who hired the AD who suggested the coach, and continues to employ him. Who let the institution to have a financial challenge. Its not just the coach but the as I call it the old boys club. As far a winning, St Peters, Marist, Rider, Fairfield what have they done to elevate their programs. The programs exist because they almost have to have them. Their support is minimal. There is no excuse for Siena no to be at or near the top of the MAAC annually. They have the academics, fan base, facilities and history to succeed. Yes their will be turnover in coaching at this level but it used to be that those up and coming coaches wanted to coach at Siena. What it comes down to IMO is lack of management and support from the administration, basic lack of business knowledge. Candidly like MP I am gone every January, February for an extended period of time. Hopefully next 18 months gone to warmer climate for good. The school will need to find replacements for boomers, and they are not going about it the right way. Decisions cam be hard to make, especially ones where you must admit you are wrong. However that's what the management gets paid to do. Just do their job and Siena should return to its winning ways.
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Post by SaintsFan on Feb 18, 2017 7:23:32 GMT -5
No, hoop junkie constantly embellishes on this topic. Siena should be in the hunt for the MAAC title nearly every year. No one is saying 25+ every year. It should be rare to see a year like we continually see now. Siena charges far more and spends a ton compared to most other maac programs. It's like some stuck up little rich people who don't care what the product is. But they get some perverse pleasure in how much more they spend than those poor people.
The program is run piss poorly. You vote with your wallet and your ass in the seat or not. This is your only measurable voice.
As for the kids... If you walk into some restaurant or other establishment that a non athlete college kid works at and let's say that kid cooks your meal and you don't like it. You're going to do perhaps one of the following ... - complain and send the food back. A direct insult to the kids job performance - if it's consistent, you'll stop coming to the restaurant and paying money. Damaging the business and the kid's livelihood/means for paying for school.
With the athlete, who is there doing a job, it's a complete free ride with no repercussions. Hypocrisy.
I've seen people like you complain to a college kid and their boss (sometimes getting the kid fired) over something as little as a burger and yet you'll eat thousands of dollars in the Siena shit sandwich. It's very odd indeed.
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Post by Tony on Feb 18, 2017 8:06:55 GMT -5
Listen I see both sides of the argument. I get some fans stick by the program no matter what – and that’s fine that’s their choice- Siena has about 2,000 to 3,000 of those type die hards. ( and that group is shrinking as old timers pass away and younger fans move away) And it’s not up to Saintsfan to tell them they are wrong for how they choose to be a fan. Another group views the Siena program as “entertainment” and want to see a well-run program for the money. They “vote” with their pocketbook, if they don’t feel the games and or programs are worth it they downgrade their tickets or stop buying season tickets entirely – it’s this group when they stop supporting program – Siena usually makes a change of head coach ( i.e. see Beyer, Lanier and Mitch) and it’s not up to Hoopjunkie or anyone else to tell those people how they should be a “fan”
You have a 3rd group- that are just front runners and only support team when they are good The 3rd group( front runners) has obviously abandoned program, and 2nd group is losing faith in head coach and program. It’s up to Siena admin and BoT on how they want to respond. No need to argue about this- if you choose to support the program no matter what- more power to you. If you choose to stop supporting program- well that’s your choice- no need to tell those supporting program they are wrong
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bigfan
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Post by bigfan on Feb 18, 2017 8:33:06 GMT -5
No, hoop junkie constantly embellishes on this topic. Siena should be in the hunt for the MAAC title nearly every year. No one is saying 25+ every year. It should be rare to see a year like we continually see now. Siena charges far more and spends a ton compared to most other maac programs. It's like some stuck up little rich people who don't care what the product is. But they get some perverse pleasure in how much more they spend than those poor people. The program is run piss poorly. You vote with your wallet and your ass in the seat or not. This is your only measurable voice. As for the kids... If you walk into some restaurant or other establishment that a non athlete college kid works at and let's say that kid cooks your meal and you don't like it. You're going to do perhaps one of the following ... - complain and send the food back. A direct insult to the kids job performance - if it's consistent, you'll stop coming to the restaurant and paying money. Damaging the business and the kid's livelihood/means for paying for school. With the athlete, who is there doing a job, it's a complete free ride with no repercussions. Hypocrisy. I've seen people like you complain to a college kid and their boss (sometimes getting the kid fired) over something as little as a burger and yet you'll eat thousands of dollars in the Siena shit sandwich. It's very odd indeed. I think most fans would not draw this comparison at all. Being a "fan" for most is nothing like patronage to a restaurant. The only thing that I feel the players are liable for is being a good citizen and their effort on the court and in the classroom. How can you blame a kid for his not being as talented as you wish he were? With a few exceptions, I find these kids very easy to root for and support. You are certainly a different kind of fan than I am.
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bigfan
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Manhattan
Feb 18, 2017 8:38:34 GMT -5
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Post by bigfan on Feb 18, 2017 8:38:34 GMT -5
Listen I see both sides of the argument. I get some fans stick by the program no matter what – and that’s fine that’s their choice- Siena has about 2,000 to 3,000 of those type die hards. ( and that group is shrinking as old timers pass away and younger fans move away) And it’s not up to Saintsfan to tell them they are wrong for how they choose to be a fan. Another group views the Siena program as “entertainment” and want to see a well-run program for the money. They “vote” with their pocketbook, if they don’t feel the games and or programs are worth it they downgrade their tickets or stop buying season tickets entirely – it’s this group when they stop supporting program – Siena usually makes a change of head coach ( i.e. see Beyer, Lanier and Mitch) and it’s not up to Hoopjunkie or anyone else to tell those people how they should be a “fan” You have a 3rd group- that are just front runners and only support team when they are good The 3rd group( front runners) has obviously abandoned program, and 2nd group is losing faith in head coach and program. It’s up to Siena admin and BoT on how they want to respond. No need to argue about this- if you choose to support the program no matter what- more power to you. If you choose to stop supporting program- well that’s your choice- no need to tell those supporting program they are wrong Some fans from group 1 would consider group 2 types to be front runners as well. Pulling away when the program is down and pulling up a chair when they get hot. That meets the frontrunner criteria for many folks.
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Post by Tony on Feb 18, 2017 8:43:15 GMT -5
Listen I see both sides of the argument. I get some fans stick by the program no matter what – and that’s fine that’s their choice- Siena has about 2,000 to 3,000 of those type die hards. ( and that group is shrinking as old timers pass away and younger fans move away) And it’s not up to Saintsfan to tell them they are wrong for how they choose to be a fan. Another group views the Siena program as “entertainment” and want to see a well-run program for the money. They “vote” with their pocketbook, if they don’t feel the games and or programs are worth it they downgrade their tickets or stop buying season tickets entirely – it’s this group when they stop supporting program – Siena usually makes a change of head coach ( i.e. see Beyer, Lanier and Mitch) and it’s not up to Hoopjunkie or anyone else to tell those people how they should be a “fan” You have a 3rd group- that are just front runners and only support team when they are good The 3rd group( front runners) has obviously abandoned program, and 2nd group is losing faith in head coach and program. It’s up to Siena admin and BoT on how they want to respond. No need to argue about this- if you choose to support the program no matter what- more power to you. If you choose to stop supporting program- well that’s your choice- no need to tell those supporting program they are wrong Some fans from group 1 would consider group 2 types to be front runners as well. Pulling away when the program is down and pulling up a chair when they get hot. That meets the frontrunner criteria for many folks. true- no argument here- but no denying plenty of fans hang on years before dropping( or downgrading) being a fan doesnt mean Siena is entitled to your money. If it wasn't for this group Beyer might be still coaching Saints- seems once this group abandons Siena in large numbers is when Siena makes a change when things are going bad
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Post by Tony on Feb 18, 2017 8:46:24 GMT -5
No, hoop junkie constantly embellishes on this topic. Siena should be in the hunt for the MAAC title nearly every year. No one is saying 25+ every year. It should be rare to see a year like we continually see now. Siena charges far more and spends a ton compared to most other maac programs. It's like some stuck up little rich people who don't care what the product is. But they get some perverse pleasure in how much more they spend than those poor people. The program is run piss poorly. You vote with your wallet and your ass in the seat or not. This is your only measurable voice. As for the kids... If you walk into some restaurant or other establishment that a non athlete college kid works at and let's say that kid cooks your meal and you don't like it. You're going to do perhaps one of the following ... - complain and send the food back. A direct insult to the kids job performance - if it's consistent, you'll stop coming to the restaurant and paying money. Damaging the business and the kid's livelihood/means for paying for school. With the athlete, who is there doing a job, it's a complete free ride with no repercussions. Hypocrisy. I've seen people like you complain to a college kid and their boss (sometimes getting the kid fired) over something as little as a burger and yet you'll eat thousands of dollars in the Siena shit sandwich. It's very odd indeed. I think most fans would not draw this comparison at all. Being a "fan" for most is nothing like patronage to a restaurant. The only thing that I feel the players are liable for is being a good citizen and their effort on the court and in the classroom. How can you blame a kid for his not being as talented as you wish he were? With a few exceptions, I find these kids very easy to root for and support. You are certainly a different kind of fan than I am. agree with most of this- I have no problem that Saintsfan has pretty much abandoned program- its his right. Siena is not "entitled" to his support financially or otherwise) Have no idea why he wants to post about it here. No need to "rub" it in anyone's face. or tell anyone else how they should be a fan or not be a fan
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Post by SaintsFan on Feb 18, 2017 8:52:50 GMT -5
I don't rail on those with endless support until they get on me for stopping financial support last year
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Papi
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Post by Papi on Feb 18, 2017 9:33:01 GMT -5
HJ nailed it. Others have valid points but a bit extreme. The attendance numbers will bottom out when the wins dwindle down to single digits, they shouldn't even be discussed this season, the team can actually finish second, where they were predicted. I was told as a kid when you become a fan of a team you stick with your team, no matter what and when that team wins and has success you will enjoy it more and appreciate it more. Being a Giants fan in 1986 this became true.
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Post by gosaints on Feb 18, 2017 10:15:50 GMT -5
HJ nailed it. Others have valid points but a bit extreme. The attendance numbers will bottom out when the wins dwindle down to single digits, they shouldn't even be discussed this season, the team can actually finish second, where they were predicted. I was told as a kid when you become a fan of a team you stick with your team, no matter what and when that team wins and has success you will enjoy it more and appreciate it more. Being a Giants fan in 1986 this became true. Very true but do you have Giant season tickets, go to every game possible and support them? If so, excellent post if not your analogy's not quite there.
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bigfan
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Post by bigfan on Feb 18, 2017 10:26:05 GMT -5
Some fans from group 1 would consider group 2 types to be front runners as well. Pulling away when the program is down and pulling up a chair when they get hot. That meets the frontrunner criteria for many folks. true- no argument here- but no denying plenty of fans hang on years before dropping( or downgrading) being a fan doesnt mean Siena is entitled to your money. If it wasn't for this group Beyer might be still coaching Saints- seems once this group abandons Siena in large numbers is when Siena makes a change when things are going bad I have to agree. Were it not for the loss of dollars related to this group and the sponsors, the motivation for the program to sustain any level of success would be significantly less. Full disclosure - I haven't been a season ticket holder for many years, due to changes in my family situation/schedules. Nor am I a booster in any other way, other than the few games I am able to attend each season and the advertisers that I may patronize. Nor am I an alum; I'm just a local guy that got hooked by the first NCAA team in '89. if my life supported it, I would still have season tickets, and likely would through the worst of times. Part of my fandom includes getting behind the kids on the court. That's just what it is to me. If I had the pockets to be a booster beyond that, I can't say with certainty that I would maintain that support through the times when the program is being poorly run. I completely understand that type of withdrawal.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Feb 18, 2017 10:27:23 GMT -5
HJ nailed it. Others have valid points but a bit extreme. The attendance numbers will bottom out when the wins dwindle down to single digits, they shouldn't even be discussed this season, the team can actually finish second, where they were predicted. I was told as a kid when you become a fan of a team you stick with your team, no matter what and when that team wins and has success you will enjoy it more and appreciate it more. Being a Giants fan in 1986 this became true. I may have to check in with my doctor, but ....... I agree with this. I consider myself a hardcore FAN of Siena and of the Bills. Just like the Cubs had been the losers for over a hundred years they still retained many, many fans and their win this year was all the sweeter to those hard-cores. I used to be a fan of the Yankees and the Cowboys. Their wins in '77 meant more to me than the string of consecutive wins in the 90s. When they both went big-time corporate and they truly showed they were mostly a business product, I lost a great deal of interest. That is not to say I do not realize that all pro sports is a business. But for many of us, heart and emotion and purely discussing sports is more important. I got more fired up from the George Mason run than seeing Duke, UNC, or Syr make the Final Four although I know they are better programs - but they are better corporate programs. Many have stated that Siena should show themselves to be more of a business. That is a fact of life, but it is first and foremost a small school. We can debate this forever and never change the minds of those in either camp.
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