indian82
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Post by indian82 on May 25, 2018 9:52:41 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm not even sure we'll see a top 5 finish until year 3 if only because of the experienced competition. Rider, Canisius, and Iona will likely already be there next 2 years. Dunleavy will probably have Quinny in there. FF just landed some big pieces that could get them to compete for 5th too. Monmouth and Manhattan will likely continue to middle enough with their toughness to hang around the 5 or 6 spots routinely. SPU and Marist could both be similary pig border competitive long term. Maybe Niagara drops like a rock post Dukes and Scott but that's 1. It's likely going to be an uphill battle for awhile. I see your point re: the strength of the MAAC. I like the tempered approach via expectations.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on May 25, 2018 9:55:59 GMT -5
It also depends on the definition of dead last. Finishing 6-12 in a competitive MAAC and losing the tiebreaker to wind up the 11th place team is very different than going 2-16 and being the door mat of the league.
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Post by goldsaint17 on May 25, 2018 10:13:56 GMT -5
I typically start really looking around the league at recruits and pieces in like August. Once I do that I usually start to get a pretty good picture of where Siena stands. The MAAC is still recruiting and landing players. There's also 2 other coaches new to their schools. I expect Marist to be more competitive next year with Dunne. JC may talk a good game, have positive energy, and recruit to a style but the league seems to be looking more competitive. I like that he knows what he is and he recruits to that but I'm both a bit skeptical of his style itself and leery of the tougher MAAC competition. Iona, Rider, Canisius, Quinny etc...these teams aren't likely going to just roll over and die any time soon. Isaiah Reese is just a junior. Unless the guy transfers out or joins the Celtics, he's going to be there 2 more years. Molson too...and Stevie Jordan..and Frederick Scott...and... We still have to go thru these guys to win for 2 to 3 more years. It's one thing to beat a down MAAC or win the NEC without being able to rebound...but it's another altogether to win in an up MAAC vs. teams who are either dominating you on the boards or playing the same style as you only better and more experienced at it. That Iona/Quinny/Rider/Canisius (if they keep Reese) group is strong, but there’s a lot of room to move up beyond them if JC can add 1-2 more impact pieces. Plus, there’s a way in which that group flat-lines fast (St Johns fires Mullin & hires Cluess, Dunleavy gets a new job), Rider young guys transfer, Reese leaves— all of those things could happen). The rest of the league: Fairfield— loses Nelson & Flavors, good frosh group but Syd is the true definition of a mediocre coach. Monmouth: No PG, Seaborn is never healthy (if he even comes back) Manhattan: Lose basically everything of value except Paulicap Niagara: Loses Dukes and Scott, and their coach is still Chris Casey St. Peter’s: Have no idea how to value them, talent level is fairly low and without playing that muck it up style, not sure if they win at all this year with Sha (but some upside if Sha is the real deal) Marist: I agree with you KK that Marist could be ok if Dunne brings them some defense. That’s not exactly a murderers row though, and so if JC can coach these guys up and some guys step up, being in the 5-7 range isn’t crazy. I will enter the season with no win total expectation, the roster left is not good and because of how late he had to start it was going to be very difficult to bring in good talent. If the guy wins 15 games and finishes top 6 he should be MAAC COY. I’m just looking for the team to compete and improve as the year goes on before most of the reinforcements arrive.
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Post by MTS on May 25, 2018 10:22:56 GMT -5
I'm very optimistic - I think we'll finish around 6th or 7th this year (12-15 wins overall). By year two we'll be in the top 3.
By Jamion's third team we'll be one of the favorites to win the regular season and tournament championships. It's all about recruiting so far he's added Pickett, Seymour, and Donald Carey all MAAC or better talents on paper. It's very important that the staff lands a big time class this fall like Fran did in the summer/fall before he ever coached his first game at Siena.
Siena can and absolutely be a top 50-100 program nationally. It's all about coaching (and recruiting) at this level. The MAAC doesn't have many good coaches IMHO. I think I'd put Jamion in the top 4 already.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 10:37:13 GMT -5
I'm very optimistic - I think we'll finish around 6th or 7th this year (12-15 wins overall). By year two we'll be in the top 3. By Jamion's third team we'll be one of the favorites to win the regular season and tournament championships. It's all about recruiting so far he's added Pickett, Seymour, and Donald Carey all MAAC or better talents on paper. It's very important that the staff lands a big time class this fall like Fran did in the summer/fall before he ever coached his first game at Siena. Siena can and absolutely be a top 50-100 program nationally. It's all about coaching (and recruiting) at this level. The MAAC doesn't have many good coaches IMHO. I think I'd put Jamion in the top 4 already. Are you sure they won't win the national title by year 2? Or is that in year 3?
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Post by MTS on May 25, 2018 11:52:32 GMT -5
I'm very optimistic - I think we'll finish around 6th or 7th this year (12-15 wins overall). By year two we'll be in the top 3. By Jamion's third team we'll be one of the favorites to win the regular season and tournament championships. It's all about recruiting so far he's added Pickett, Seymour, and Donald Carey all MAAC or better talents on paper. It's very important that the staff lands a big time class this fall like Fran did in the summer/fall before he ever coached his first game at Siena. Siena can and absolutely be a top 50-100 program nationally. It's all about coaching (and recruiting) at this level. The MAAC doesn't have many good coaches IMHO. I think I'd put Jamion in the top 4 already. Are you sure they won't win the national title by year 2? Or is that in year 3? God forbid we put attainable goals for the program. This is the MAAC not the Big 10. As Gorvy said - good coaches win by year two at Siena. And I believe Jamion Christian is a good coach. His conference record at MSM blew away JP's at Loyola and Fran at UNCG. Yes the MAAC is better than the NEC but the SoCon was pretty similar.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 25, 2018 13:16:30 GMT -5
I typically start really looking around the league at recruits and pieces in like August. Once I do that I usually start to get a pretty good picture of where Siena stands. The MAAC is still recruiting and landing players. There's also 2 other coaches new to their schools. I expect Marist to be more competitive next year with Dunne. JC may talk a good game, have positive energy, and recruit to a style but the league seems to be looking more competitive. I like that he knows what he is and he recruits to that but I'm both a bit skeptical of his style itself and leery of the tougher MAAC competition. Iona, Rider, Canisius, Quinny etc...these teams aren't likely going to just roll over and die any time soon. Isaiah Reese is just a junior. Unless the guy transfers out or joins the Celtics, he's going to be there 2 more years. Molson too...and Stevie Jordan..and Frederick Scott...and... We still have to go thru these guys to win for 2 to 3 more years. It's one thing to beat a down MAAC or win the NEC without being able to rebound...but it's another altogether to win in an up MAAC vs. teams who are either dominating you on the boards or playing the same style as you only better and more experienced at it. Donald Carey arrives the season after next, and JC will have filled a lot of other scholarships by then. Add guys like Zdor or Rafus and the like and he can easily recruit us right to the top by year 2. Look how quickly Fran was in the championship game one season after somehow winning 15 games with mostly crap his first season. All you need for a quick rise is a good plan and better talent than everyone else. JC was dead right when he said his tenure will be judge by his first 10 recruits. So lets see if he brings it and quickly blows by everyone just like Fran once did. I see what he wants to build. Defensively, we already know about havoc. Offensively, he wants to run a Villanova type attack where 3 pointers rain down upon opponents in an overwhelming aerial barrage. I'm okay with that. It seems to work.
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on May 25, 2018 13:21:40 GMT -5
Are you sure they won't win the national title by year 2? Or is that in year 3? God forbid we put attainable goals for the program. This is the MAAC not the Big 10. As Gorvy said - good coaches win by year two at Siena. And I believe Jamion Christian is a good coach. His conference record at MSM blew away JP's at Loyola and Fran at UNCG. Yes the MAAC is better than the NEC but the SoCon was pretty similar. Yes, goals are fine, but I think KK’s point is that we need to temper OUR expectations. (JC can set his own goals.) If we don’t win 12-15 next year or come in top 3 the following year, we are afraid that people will have considered the team and JC a failure. I am not saying MTS is thinking that, but you keep saying something long enough and you start to believe/expect it. If it gets into his 5th year and we have 8 wins, well that’s a different story.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on May 25, 2018 13:54:35 GMT -5
I typically start really looking around the league at recruits and pieces in like August. Once I do that I usually start to get a pretty good picture of where Siena stands. The MAAC is still recruiting and landing players. There's also 2 other coaches new to their schools. I expect Marist to be more competitive next year with Dunne. JC may talk a good game, have positive energy, and recruit to a style but the league seems to be looking more competitive. I like that he knows what he is and he recruits to that but I'm both a bit skeptical of his style itself and leery of the tougher MAAC competition. Iona, Rider, Canisius, Quinny etc...these teams aren't likely going to just roll over and die any time soon. Isaiah Reese is just a junior. Unless the guy transfers out or joins the Celtics, he's going to be there 2 more years. Molson too...and Stevie Jordan..and Frederick Scott...and... We still have to go thru these guys to win for 2 to 3 more years. It's one thing to beat a down MAAC or win the NEC without being able to rebound...but it's another altogether to win in an up MAAC vs. teams who are either dominating you on the boards or playing the same style as you only better and more experienced at it. Donald Carey arrives the season after next, and JC will have filled a lot of other scholarships by then. Add guys like Zdor or Rafus and the like and he can easily recruit us right to the top by year 2. Look how quickly Fran was in the championship game one season after somehow winning 15 games with mostly crap his first season. All you need for a quick rise is a good plan and better talent than everyone else. JC was dead right when he said his tenure will be judge by his first 10 recruits. So lets see if he brings it and quickly blows by everyone just like Fran once did. I see what he wants to build. Defensively, we already know about havoc. Offensively, he wants to run a Villanova type attack where 3 pointers rain down upon opponents in an overwhelming aerial barrage. I'm okay with that. It seems to work. Rafus, would kill it and be a steal at this level.... youtu.be/DeoaB6GN36UI might take a shot on Zachery as well... youtu.be/rWegEJ1R8lI White tee/Gray shorts Not sure what this kids story is but watching that highlight reel (yeah I l know all video is a showcase) this kid can play shoots well, can handle the ball, pass, athletic, quick gets to the rim....I like his game.
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SIENA1971
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Post by SIENA1971 on May 25, 2018 14:15:54 GMT -5
I’d hold off the firing squad until roster is full of his recruits ... but I would be extremely disappointed if he doesn't’ get more MAAC wins then last years team
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Post by goldsaint17 on May 25, 2018 14:27:10 GMT -5
I’d hold off the firing squad until roster is full of his recruits ... but I would be extremely disappointed if he doesn't’ get more MAAC wins then last years team I’d be disappointed too, but it’s a monumental task to lose your 4 best players from an 8 win team and win games. Will he do it? I think so. But JC is facing a massive challenge.
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Post by hockeyguy on May 25, 2018 15:13:01 GMT -5
I’d hold off the firing squad until roster is full of his recruits ... but I would be extremely disappointed if he doesn't’ get more MAAC wins then last years team I’d be disappointed too, but it’s a monumental task to lose your 4 best players from an 8 win team and win games. Will he do it? I think so. But JC is facing a massive challenge. Goldsaint, we all have our opinion, and I disagree with yours that Siena lost it's 4 best players from an 8 win team. Penn was hurt the second half of the season and Nico quit the second half of the season. Think Siena may have been a 12 or 13 win team with them playing? As for the other 2, Prince played like the freshman that he was, and Horn was a streaky part-time shooter. I am not so sure that "8 win team" lost all that much. Prince is without a doubt the second biggest loss (after Nico) and may have developed into a monster player in the MAAC. Time will tell how he does in "the bigs". JC is a well paid coach and well regarded by many on here (I don't know enough about him to feel one way or the other yet). Top coaches take what they have and find a way to win, even if it means slightly altering your coaching style to fit the pieces you have rather than trying to force slightly square pegs into round holes, until you get the right shaped "pegs" a year or two down the line.
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Post by goldsaint17 on May 25, 2018 15:35:13 GMT -5
I’d be disappointed too, but it’s a monumental task to lose your 4 best players from an 8 win team and win games. Will he do it? I think so. But JC is facing a massive challenge. Goldsaint, we all have our opinion, and I disagree with yours that Siena lost it's 4 best players from an 8 win team. Penn was hurt the second half of the season and Nico quit the second half of the season. Think Siena may have been a 12 or 13 win team with them playing? As for the other 2, Prince played like the freshman that he was, and Horn was a streaky part-time shooter. I am not so sure that "8 win team" lost all that much. Prince is without a doubt the second biggest loss (after Nico) and may have developed into a monster player in the MAAC. Time will tell how he does in "the bigs". JC is a well paid coach and well regarded by many on here (I don't know enough about him to feel one way or the other yet). Top coaches take what they have and find a way to win, even if it means slightly altering your coaching style to fit the pieces you have rather than trying to force slightly square pegs into round holes, until you get the right shaped "pegs" a year or two down the line. I’m not saying it’s impossible to replace those guys (it certainly isnt) but it’s very hard in May to get guys at the level of a Nico, Prince, or Penn. With better coaching, we definitely can win more than this years team. I just think we have to temper our expectations for this year given the situation he is walking into, both roster wise and time wise.
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on May 25, 2018 19:26:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think the Saints are far off from being that top 125 team. They were top 120 for 2 out of JP's 5 years and everyone here thinks he was an utter disappointment. I couldn't care less where he recruits from as long as he is recruiting kids that fit his preferred style of play and will be excellent representatives of the college. (High character) If he happens to like some local recruits and can convince them to come to Siena, great. But if he doesn't, so be it. That said, I don't traditionally pay a lot of attention to recruiting. The coaching staff is responsible for having a vision for the program and then achieving it. I leave it up to them to figure out how to get there. I agree completely with your bolded statement above. My post to start the thread in response to the naysayers beginning to come out already with no confidence that JC could get some of these top kids to stay home and play for the Saints.
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on May 25, 2018 19:32:50 GMT -5
What happens if Siena comes in dead last next year? I should rather say, what type of finish will keep the JC happy train status a live? I think the vast majority of us will be fine with it if we see him working to put the kids in a position to succeed, developing them and actually making logical in game coaching decisions/adjustments and finally what the future looks like based on recruiting. Of course all of this assumes he has the other parts of his job in order as well, making sure the athletes remain student athletes, good rep of Siena and so on.
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