OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Nov 19, 2018 11:00:34 GMT -5
As I said the end results are fine. I am not here saying to fire the guy so stop getting your panties all scrunched up in a bunch ladies. But style of play is style of play. If your going to promote and market a style of play as you obviously are/have been doing since pre-day one on the job with Mayhem, then you better actually play that style of play...starting on Day 1. And that's regardless of who you have on the roster. Including 5 of them being your own recruits including three who are major contributors minutes wise. Does that mean you just waste these 5 guys freshmen season because the roster as a whole does not yet fit the system? No. That would be crazy stupid if you did. You play Mayhem Day 1 just as you would Day 501 and hopefully by Day 100 you begin to get better at it. I would rather be 0-4 than 2-2 playing Mayhem as it was "marketed" to be and not as I am currently seeing it to be. If I am honest. If many of you are honest. Right now Mayhem on both sides of the ball is absolutely nothing different than recent past years style of play other than one single category....and that is shooting the 3. Nothing. As far as their half court defense goes I have seen nothing that much different. Whether out of necessity or not, he is playing guys more minutes who should have been playing more with Patsos. Mayhem to me would be more closely associated with what Fran was doing with his half court trapping than putting a single full court trap on a guy and then laying off as Patsos consistently did. I like the guy. I like the end results so far. But I am not yet sold on him as being what I thought it would be from Day 1. I hope we see change and the growth in Mayhem but haven't seen much of anything different to date in style of play between last years team and this years team. But like Mitch sold us a false bill of goods saying that he was going to be an up tempo coach and Patsos sold us a false bill of goods in saying he was going to be a full court trapping up tempo team, I just hope Mayhem is not just another false bill of goods more used as a marketing ploy than much of being any actual Mayhem itself. Because if what we have seen to date is what is being considered as being actual Mayhem then these guys went through alot of preseason hoopla of getting ready for a Mayhem that is more there in word than it is there in action. Go Saints! 1. I resent the 'panties all scrunched up in a bunch' analogy. I have known many men, especially here who get their NUTS IN A KNOT 2. Mayhem does not mean run around like a chicken with your head cut off. In fact, it may mean slowing the game down to try to take a team out of sorts that is much more athletic than you are. 3. The players are in better shape than ever...and there is a team cohesiveness that I haven't seen since Steven Cruz left. That said if your stable isn't loaded up with some high caliber stakes horses, you aren't going to the Breeder's Cup. Capice? Snicker snicker đ
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Post by MTS on Nov 19, 2018 12:45:49 GMT -5
Who said theyâd rather be 0-4 than 2-2 if there was more mayhem?? Thatâs just silly. Coach Christian is trying to win as many games this year as he can. Heâs trying to change the culture and put a winning foundation down so we can realistically contend in 2019-2020 and beyond.
Fran couldnât go full uptempo either this first season. Jamion has to get more of his recruits in here to play his full style. Only Camper and Smithen (of the players he inherited) really fit the running and pressure game. Weâre starting three guys that go 6â8, 6â9 and 6â9 does that sound like youâre going to be running and pressing for 40 minutes. This year is modified mayhem. The real stuff comes next year!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 13:41:33 GMT -5
As I said the end results are fine. I am not here saying to fire the guy so stop getting your panties all scrunched up in a bunch ladies. I know GB reacted to your "panties all scrunched up" comment so I wont pile on that segment. She is indeed, a lady, and quite a knowledgeable lady at that; her comments should be read on their value alone regardless of what undergarments she may be wearing that you fantasize over. Not sure where the "ladies" (i.e., the plural form) comes to play in your comment. Perhaps you have misconstrued some screen names? I for one prefer jockey shorts - panties wouldn't go over well in the gym! Aside from all of that, don't be so sensitive, we've all come through a period of desensitization re Siena's men's basketball program and lived to talk about it. For a while we want to emphasize the positives and accept any negatives as a necessity in any rebuilding year.
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ltf
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Post by ltf on Nov 19, 2018 14:12:11 GMT -5
Let me start by saying I like this guy. Am not and was not a fan of Patsos, when he was at Loyola and when Siena hired him here, but any coach, including Patsos, could have put a team out there that could score 47 points. Someone said Mayhem may mean not running around like a chicken with your head cut off but also slowing it down. If so Siena may have been playing a version of mayhem for the past several years. Last year Kahil was not a point guard, couldn't guard a mailbox, did not have a good handle, now he's the missing link, and is sorely missed. This year we are struggling because he is playing guys 6'8", 6"9", etc. It'll be different next year when we bring in new recruits like Young and Sutherland, who happen to be 6'8" and 6'9". We like this guy so we make excuses and justifications for the same things we condemned the previous guy for. Yes, the culture has changed for the better. Yes, everyone is happier, Yes, there is a great deal of enthusiasm and everyone is looking forward to a great future, but the product on the court is the same with the exception of the 3 point shots. Christian is a great guy, enthusiastic, hard working, charismatic, likeable, approachable but as of yet,no change in the product.
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Nov 19, 2018 16:42:58 GMT -5
lft... "no change in the product." What the hell 4 games have you been watching this season? If you do not see significant changes in all aspects of the Saints play from the past 5 years, you are in need of some serious basketball education. There is no comparison, none, to what JP was doing (or not) and what JC has done (in only a few months as HC). The lack of basic basketball IQ on this site continues to amaze me! And no finer example than your post. Last year's product starts this season 0-4.
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Post by SaintsInCNY on Nov 19, 2018 16:59:31 GMT -5
It really baffles me to watch board members draw broad comparisons between the current coaching regime and past regimes, especially after four games. It makes me conclude, that these members are just "seeing" the game, not "watching". What was the argument in White Men Can't Jump? âYou can listen to Jimi, but you canât hear Jimi.â. My point is, some people tend to just notice the obvious, rather than the whole product. Just because a game is slowed down, doesn't necessarily mean the game plan isn't operating. For everyone expecting this team to play in the 80's all season, you should remove those expectations now. The Providence game had an up and down flow in spirts along with the GW game, but those teams had the guard play that dictated that flow. Holy Cross controlled the tempo and from all signs appeared very well coached. Its going to the be hard for this team to run and hit threes in transition when playing from behind because opposing coaches are going to know that's what they want to do. Although it my not be the "Mayhem" everyone has hoped for, I have noticed a few things worth nothing over the first four games.
1. The ball movement on offense is the best I've seen in years. 2. The team is running consistent offensive sets. The players look prepared and understand the offense and their role in it 3. Turnovers are down, and the team is playing under control. 4. Defensively, not only are fouls down, but we are playing an effective defense without fouling. 5. Shot selection is better. I know the argument will be made "We are getting down too deep in the shot clock and have too many shot clock violations". What this team really lacks is players who can score in a variety of ways and/or can create their own shot. That is why at times you are going to see offensive possession get deeper into the shot clock because the team in going to need to run the offense to create the best look.
I really suggest that when watching the games to try and noticing the little things and maybe from that you will gain an understanding the big picture and understand why things are going the way they are rather than drawing generalized comparisons to other teams and coaches. I'm not anointing anyone the next savior, but I will say at least JC is backing up what he says. As someone said maybe this is "Modified Mayhem". He promised 3 point shooting, press, pick and roll style offense and all three have been present in every game. I'm sure JC will be the first to apologize if and of those areas aren't up to the expectations of the fanbase yet. Stay positive and enjoy this team! We have a MINIUMUM of 29 games to go!
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Post by orange77 on Nov 19, 2018 17:56:17 GMT -5
I haven't attended any games yet, so my thoughts are based on watching 2 on TV, listening to radio and reviewing the box scores. The differences I appreciate so far are the coaching staff demeanor, the opportunities given to more players to play through mistakes, the far fewer turnovers and fouls and more assists. In the HC game, if we had made only 2 more 3s and they made 2 fewer 3s, the stats and score would have been almost dead even. The only issues I have at this very early point in the season are the same as some others have voiced - too many possessions going down to the wire, not enough real pressure defense, and I'd like to see Camper get more time and take more shots, especially inside the 3-point line. I'm hopeful, if not confident, that JC will make positive adjustments as the season continues. I really appreciate his personality and style working with these young men.
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Post by sienafanallyearlong2 on Nov 19, 2018 19:48:49 GMT -5
Thank you Walk On. Thank you for being objective.
Because we are questioning not the results but the style of play, we are seen as being ignorant, stupid, blind, etc..
I will again say for the millionth time, I like the guy and I like the results. I like his positive nature. I like alot about him.
I truly hope he is the real deal on the court during game time as I believe he is off the court dealing with everything else.
But for the many on this board who think this style of play is any different than Patsos, where the ball moves around the perimeter with limited ball movement inside the three point line, is just not being objective.
They may do it in a different way (Patsos pick and roll that never developed into anything as far as the roll goes vs JC's Princeton-50% version) but the end result of the ball staying out on the perimeter is late into the shot clock is pretty similar.
You can move the ball around the perimeter all you want and move off the ball around the perimeter all you want but if the ball either stays outside the perimeter or intermittingly gets passed into a limited post player in Fisher, where you never pose a threat inside the three, the end result of the ball staying out on the perimeter 90% of the time is just like a Patsos end result....which is usually a late in the shot clock guarded three.
If your going to run the Princeton half court offense like JC does to a degree, it at least better include alot of backdoor cuts, which to date are few and far between.
Like I said, I like guy. But please, be objective.
I do not expect Mayhem to mean running around like a chicken with its head cut off, but it should mean that your being aggressive on both sides of the ball...pushing the other team to making bad decisions and missing shots.
That was what Mayhem was promoted to being back in the summer. To wearing other teams down because our guys will be in so much better shape. No one can disagree with that statement.
Do you see the other team bending over grabbing their shorts? I don't.
Do you see other teams missing threes because their legs arent there? I don't.
Do you see other teams making bad decisions due to fatigue? I don't.
Do you see our guys ever pushing the ball up the court filling lanes in front and behind the ball on delayed fast break opportunities, whether it's after a miss or a make by the other team? I don't.
To the contrary I see alot of walking up the court. Literall. Walking.
Right now to me Mayhem is just a word. Not a system.
I hope it changes. But to date it is nothing much different than what I have seen before and if some or many of you dont see some truth in that statement, than in my own humble opinion your just not being objective.
Watch one game, one half of a University of Buffalo game. That is Mayhem. It's not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Its pressure. On both sides of the ball. And it has nothing to do with success. It has to do with a culture, a mentality. A style of play. And it comes directly from their Head Coach.
And yes, if our kids were playing this style of play I would welcome an 0-4 start vs 2-2 because I know they are only going to continue to get better at it and as the season progresses, and as future recruits come to visit who see this style of play and want to play this style of play we will be getting more athletic kids who want to come to Siena. Just as they are doing now at Buffalo where the level of athlete they are getting there today is a much more athletic player than they were getting 5 yrs ago.
Just hope this is what JC's version of Mayhem turns into. Go Saints! Go Coach!
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Nov 19, 2018 20:33:00 GMT -5
Thank you Walk On. Thank you for being objective. Because we are questioning not the results but the style of play, we are seen as being ignorant, stupid, blind, etc.. I will again say for the millionth time, I like the guy and I like the results. I like his positive nature. I like alot about him. I truly hope he is the real deal on the court during game time as I believe he is off the court dealing with everything else. But for the many on this board who think this style of play is any different than Patsos, where the ball moves around the perimeter with limited ball movement inside the three point line, is just not being objective. They may do it in a different way (Patsos pick and roll that never developed into anything as far as the roll goes vs JC's Princeton-50% version) but the end result of the ball staying out on the perimeter is late into the shot clock is pretty similar. You can move the ball around the perimeter all you want and move off the ball around the perimeter all you want but if the ball either stays outside the perimeter or intermittingly gets passed into a limited post player in Fisher, where you never pose a threat inside the three, the end result of the ball staying out on the perimeter 90% of the time is just like a Patsos end result....which is usually a late in the shot clock guarded three. If your going to run the Princeton half court offense like JC does to a degree, it at least better include alot of backdoor cuts, which to date are few and far between. Like I said, I like guy. But please, be objective. I do not expect Mayhem to mean running around like a chicken with its head cut off, but it should mean that your being aggressive on both sides of the ball...pushing the other team to making bad decisions and missing shots. That was what Mayhem was promoted to being back in the summer. To wearing other teams down because our guys will be in so much better shape. No one can disagree with that statement. Do you see the other team bending over grabbing their shorts? I don't. Do you see other teams missing threes because their legs arent there? I don't. Do you see other teams making bad decisions due to fatigue? I don't. Do you see our guys ever pushing the ball up the court filling lanes in front and behind the ball on delayed fast break opportunities, whether it's after a miss or a make by the other team? I don't. To the contrary I see alot of walking up the court. Literall. Walking. Right now to me Mayhem is just a word. Not a system. I hope it changes. But to date it is nothing much different than what I have seen before and if some or many of you dont see some truth in that statement, than in my own humble opinion your just not being objective. Watch one game, one half of a University of Buffalo game. That is Mayhem. It's not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Its pressure. On both sides of the ball. And it has nothing to do with success. It has to do with a culture, a mentality. A style of play. And it comes directly from their Head Coach. And yes, if our kids were playing this style of play I would welcome an 0-4 start vs 2-2 because I know they are only going to continue to get better at it and as the season progresses, and as future recruits come to visit who see this style of play and want to play this style of play we will be getting more athletic kids who want to come to Siena. Just as they are doing now at Buffalo where the level of athlete they are getting there today is a much more athletic player than they were getting 5 yrs ago. Just hope this is what JC's version of Mayhem turns into. Go Saints! Go Coach! Here is what I am looking forward to in the future: m.youtube.com/watch?v=jF5ybTBXMIA
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Nov 19, 2018 20:44:57 GMT -5
Thank you Walk On. Thank you for being objective. Because we are questioning not the results but the style of play, we are seen as being ignorant, stupid, blind, etc.. I will again say for the millionth time, I like the guy and I like the results. I like his positive nature. I like alot about him. I truly hope he is the real deal on the court during game time as I believe he is off the court dealing with everything else. But for the many on this board who think this style of play is any different than Patsos, where the ball moves around the perimeter with limited ball movement inside the three point line, is just not being objective. They may do it in a different way (Patsos pick and roll that never developed into anything as far as the roll goes vs JC's Princeton-50% version) but the end result of the ball staying out on the perimeter is late into the shot clock is pretty similar. You can move the ball around the perimeter all you want and move off the ball around the perimeter all you want but if the ball either stays outside the perimeter or intermittingly gets passed into a limited post player in Fisher, where you never pose a threat inside the three, the end result of the ball staying out on the perimeter 90% of the time is just like a Patsos end result....which is usually a late in the shot clock guarded three. If your going to run the Princeton half court offense like JC does to a degree, it at least better include alot of backdoor cuts, which to date are few and far between. Like I said, I like guy. But please, be objective. I do not expect Mayhem to mean running around like a chicken with its head cut off, but it should mean that your being aggressive on both sides of the ball...pushing the other team to making bad decisions and missing shots. That was what Mayhem was promoted to being back in the summer. To wearing other teams down because our guys will be in so much better shape. No one can disagree with that statement. Do you see the other team bending over grabbing their shorts? I don't. Do you see other teams missing threes because their legs arent there? I don't. Do you see other teams making bad decisions due to fatigue? I don't. Do you see our guys ever pushing the ball up the court filling lanes in front and behind the ball on delayed fast break opportunities, whether it's after a miss or a make by the other team? I don't. To the contrary I see alot of walking up the court. Literall. Walking. Right now to me Mayhem is just a word. Not a system. I hope it changes. But to date it is nothing much different than what I have seen before and if some or many of you dont see some truth in that statement, than in my own humble opinion your just not being objective. Watch one game, one half of a University of Buffalo game. That is Mayhem. It's not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Its pressure. On both sides of the ball. And it has nothing to do with success. It has to do with a culture, a mentality. A style of play. And it comes directly from their Head Coach. And yes, if our kids were playing this style of play I would welcome an 0-4 start vs 2-2 because I know they are only going to continue to get better at it and as the season progresses, and as future recruits come to visit who see this style of play and want to play this style of play we will be getting more athletic kids who want to come to Siena. Just as they are doing now at Buffalo where the level of athlete they are getting there today is a much more athletic player than they were getting 5 yrs ago. Just hope this is what JC's version of Mayhem turns into. Go Saints! Go Coach! 1. Do you think he was able to assemble the roster to do what he really WANTS Mayhem to do? I think he is simulating MAYHEM the best he can with the roster he was able to put together in the 3 months he had since he was hired. (That's even assuming ANY worthwhile recruit is still available the beginning of JUNE, much less the beginning of August.) 2. Given the roster he has, we are FOUR games in. Just four - at least give him till a month into the conference schedule. And, I prefer to be 2-2 rather than 0-4 for a NUMBER of reasons.. A big part of his job this year is to sell the program to the caliber of kids who WILL be able to execute MAYHEM the way he truly intends. 24 losses will not sell much.
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Post by MTS on Nov 19, 2018 22:29:42 GMT -5
This game exposed the weaknesses ... we will now see how good a coach JC is going forward... again team is a work in progress- key word being progress ... fans with realistic expectations probably are feeling pretty good right now Now itâs only a very small sample of for games but...Two huge weaknesses being addressed. Thatâs good coaching. Hopefully it continues and weâll win our share of games.
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Post by SaintsFan on Nov 22, 2018 11:35:22 GMT -5
how about this observation.... When Siena starts MAAC play January 3rd... by the 14th of January they very well could be 3-1, 4-0 in conference play LOLOL.
@st Peters (they are pretty bad this year) vs Canisius (toss up) @ Marist (toss up) vs Monmouth (awful)
of course they could just as easily be 1-3
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Nov 22, 2018 11:58:19 GMT -5
how about this observation.... When Siena starts MAAC play January 3rd... by the 14th of January they very well could be 3-1, 4-0 in conference play LOLOL. @st Peters (they are pretty bad this year) vs Canisius (toss up) @ Marist (toss up) vs Monmouth (awful) of course they could just as easily be 1-3 Nice flip flop Papi
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