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Post by hoopsforever on Feb 11, 2018 13:00:42 GMT -5
There was a time, and not too long ago, when our Saints were knocking on the door to become one of the elite mid-major programs in the country. So, is the bottom of the MAAC low major or still a mid major? John Marshall of the AP had a very interesting article in today's papers entitled, "Low Major Programs Faced with Slim Margin for Error". I have listed below some of key points from his article. Makes for an interesting read.
1. Low majors can't recruit the same types of players as the high or even mid-majors, so a key loss means sending an even less-skilled player onto the court. An injury may force into play a young, inexperienced player who may not be ready for the spotlight or know the system enough to be effective.
2. Transfers have skyrocketed in college basketball, eclipsing 800 last year. Many were low major players seeking a stiffer challenge and a brighter spotlight.
3. When low majors play teams up the D1 food chain, they have to be near perfect to overcome the talent disparity. They can't have a bad shooting night, break down defensively, miscommunicate, play lethargically, even after a long bus trip. Everyone has to be fundamentally sound.
4. Low major players almost always have some shortcomings. They are too short, too skinny, offensively limited, not athletic enough, holding them back from playing at a higher level.
5. A focus on fundamentals is paramount for low major teams to succeed and coaches have to develop the players individually, to become better shooters, improve their footwork, learn to dribble penetrate and kick out, play defense on the college level.
6. Former South Carolina coach Dave Odum said, "If you're going to be successful at the lower levels, I truly believe you have to be an expert at teaching the game of basketball. If you are a low major coach, you've got to be able to teach them how to play the game and be able to develop them individually." The low majors only chance rides on it.
So, is Siena still a mid major or not?
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bigdog76
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Post by bigdog76 on Feb 11, 2018 13:47:42 GMT -5
A few weeks ago I watched Bucknell vs. Colgate from Colgate. The gym was like high school and the attendance even less.
I thought could this be the future of Siena basketball at the ARC. At least Patriot League games are on CBS Sports Network.
I'm not convinced if Siena played this year at a low major level that their record would be much better. SAD!!
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Post by goldsaint17 on Feb 11, 2018 14:17:59 GMT -5
Siena is still a mid-major. The term mid-major vs low-major or high-major goes far beyond the short-term quality of the product on the floor. Siena spends like a mid-major, has the facilities of a mid-major (and a good one at that with the practice facility now), has the recent success of a mid-major (Siena has won 2 NCAA Tournament games in the last 10 years), and is affiliated with a conference that consistently sits in the 16-22 range out of 32 conferences.
This team isn't good and wouldn't win the majority of games at most levels this season. But low-major teams are bound to 15 and 16 seed games if they make the NCAA Tournament. We know this not to be true. Low-major teams don't get 6,000 fans at their games. Low-major teams don't have the advantages we have.
We are a mid-major team that has a bad coach and has hired 2 bad coaches in a row. But that doesn't all the sudden make you a low-major. Is Rutgers a mid-major because they haven't won in forever? Washington State? DePaul? Is Iona a high-major because they've won 20 games 7 years in a row?
As for the arguments shared by the original post: Siena hasn't been losing players to up-transfers. Even when JO transferred briefly it wasn't for a higher level (went down in conference affiliation). Wright, Long, Bisping all could have left and moved up at points in their career and did not. You see that action in the NEC, like at Mount St. Mary's where they lost 3 starters to Miami, Texas, and Kansas State last season. As for recruiting, I think the statement made is accurate for mid-major programs as well (unless you are going to restrict the mid-major level to the A10 and Mountain West). Most are a step slow, a inch short, etc. But I have no doubt in my mind that Siena can recruit high-level mid-major players against A10 programs with the right coach. Most of the points here are more relevant in the gap between high-major and mid-major programs than in mid-major vs low-major programs IMO.
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sky
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Post by sky on Feb 11, 2018 14:18:14 GMT -5
There was a time, and not too long ago, when our Saints were knocking on the door to become one of the elite mid-major programs in the country. So, is the bottom of the MAAC low major or still a mid major? John Marshall of the AP had a very interesting article in today's papers entitled, "Low Major Programs Faced with Slim Margin for Error". I have listed below some of key points from his article. Makes for an interesting read. 1. Low majors can't recruit the same types of players as the high or even mid-majors, so a key loss means sending an even less-skilled player onto the court. An injury may force into play a young, inexperienced player who may not be ready for the spotlight or know the system enough to be effective. 2. Transfers have skyrocketed in college basketball, eclipsing 800 last year. Many were low major players seeking a stiffer challenge and a brighter spotlight. 3. When low majors play teams up the D1 food chain, they have to be near perfect to overcome the talent disparity. They can't have a bad shooting night, break down defensively, miscommunicate, play lethargically, even after a long bus trip. Everyone has to be fundamentally sound. 4. Low major players almost always have some shortcomings. They are too short, too skinny, offensively limited, not athletic enough, holding them back from playing at a higher level. 5. A focus on fundamentals is paramount for low major teams to succeed and coaches have to develop the players individually, to become better shooters, improve their footwork, learn to dribble penetrate and kick out, play defense on the college level. 6. Former South Carolina coach Dave Odum said, "If you're going to be successful at the lower levels, I truly believe you have to be an expert at teaching the game of basketball. If you are a low major coach, you've got to be able to teach them how to play the game and be able to develop them individually." The low majors only chance rides on it. So, is Siena still a mid major or not? This post put tears of realization in my eyes...
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rickyp
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Post by rickyp on Feb 11, 2018 14:20:38 GMT -5
I think they're being ran like a low major.JMO I'm watching Wisconsin play they look like a mid major with what they're working with this year.And they're in the Big 10 imagine that.
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Post by marshotel on Feb 11, 2018 14:25:31 GMT -5
I think the term mid-major is very subjective and I tend to associate a mid-major status with sustained success. The Saints flirted with that success but with coaches moving up, bad hires and chokehold contracts any momentum to perennially be called a mid-major has slipped away.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Feb 11, 2018 14:33:07 GMT -5
After watching UVM closely the other night I realized just how bad we really are .... I hate to say it but as far as coaching goes and team makeup we’re definitely in the low mid tier quality wise. I don’t think we have a player that would get off UVMs bench.
Coaching, recruiting and administration - all screams low major.
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Papi
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Post by Papi on Feb 11, 2018 14:38:17 GMT -5
Like most maac teams, when winning, mid major when losing, low major.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Feb 11, 2018 14:50:40 GMT -5
Mid major is generally defined by conference and the maac is a mid major conference. The article reeks of elitism and is likely lumping all conference not major into low major, when there is a clear difference between low and mid major conferences.
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Post by thebaltimorebullett on Feb 11, 2018 16:55:41 GMT -5
existentially speaking I believe it s a fish bowl problem, college presidents know tv rights and revenue is a bonanza while unethical and the committee like to pit david and goliath but the bettors know 13,14,15,16 seeds, never advance. many of those teams are great by the 1st of march - the second place teams from those conf can be very good too and would like something other than the hula bowl trip.
the NIT is a great venue, and should be taken advantage of. yes Iona wants to see if they can beat the ohio state univ in the 10 p game on thursday night in Cleveland, but I think it s a fool errand. so you can either play or ya can t
this is just a hunch, but I think catholic univ and colleges are rethinking the roll of sports in the coming generation. maybe 1/4 of the current D1 teams should be more intramural
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Feb 11, 2018 17:32:47 GMT -5
existentially speaking I believe it s a fish bowl problem, college presidents know tv rights and revenue is a bonanza while unethical and the committee like to pit david and goliath but the bettors know 13,14,15,16 seeds, never advance. many of those teams are great by the 1st of march - the second place teams from those conf can be very good too and would like something other than the hula bowl trip. the NIT is a great venue, and should be taken advantage of. yes Iona wants to see if they can beat the ohio state univ in the 10 p game on thursday night in Cleveland, but I think it s a fool errand. so you can either play or ya can t this is just a hunch, but I think catholic univ and colleges are rethinking the roll of sports in the coming generation. maybe 1/4 of the current D1 teams should be more intramural The last sentence although hyperbolic has some truth to it. The consistent influx of d1 teams over the past 30 to 40 years has slowly but surely watered down the product. That’s why teams can’t score anymore and the NCAA has had to come up with crazy rule changes to counter balance. The game just doesn’t pass the eye test anymore from a macro standpoint. If I was running the NCAA I would put a hard stop on new entrants and tweak the system to ensure attrition to about 300 teams over the next 10 years or so. That would get the product moving in the right direction again.
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Post by thebaltimorebullett on Feb 11, 2018 18:31:28 GMT -5
let me offer an example. the big east to me is the northeast catholic league after realignment. I watched the syracuse goergetown game and was shocked at what one of the biggest rivalry games had become, a wicked bad game in a half empty gym. chris seems to have rallied of late but st johns showed horrible for 8 weeks. yes villanova is likely a 1 seed and you can make an argument for crieghton and notre dame, but the rest would be in the second bowl - and stop with the gonzaga of the east idea, once the games count they show how weak that west cost frame of mind is
you need d1 revenue in order to satisfy the title ix requirements but you are a dancing with the devil and thats the rub, it is hard to reconcile 7 mens and 12 womens teams et al.
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Post by greenblood on Feb 11, 2018 19:17:08 GMT -5
Sure blame it all on title IX...
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Post by thebaltimorebullett on Feb 11, 2018 19:31:29 GMT -5
hey no offense metoo, calling ball sand stikes here. maybe sometime we can get together and I ll share the teddy kennedy title ix story - it s a hoot
'there s a blond in every pond' - truely a lion
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Post by SaintsFan on Feb 12, 2018 7:07:25 GMT -5
Siena is a wannabe midmajor. They dont mind throwing the coin around to be able to say "we spend like a mid major". At the end of the day... they are low major. Since 2000 (18 year history) three of five coaches have been fired. One (Orr) left after one year. It is looking more and more like the McCaffery years were the fluke.
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