Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 12:46:16 GMT -5
Man, you guys undervalue Otero. As of right now, he is the best freshman Big the Saints have had since Haddix. (Better than Rossiter, JO and OD were at the same points in their career.) Doesn't mean that he will end up as good as those guys but every minute he plays now will yield dividends down the road. For those that decry the current roster's athleticism, he is the one guy on the roster with + size/strength. He has shown the ability to find open guys out of the post and is good facing the basket. His post moves need work but there aren't many Freshman with polished post moves. I say, get him as many minutes as possible now, especially with Penn and Horn. Those are the guys you build around. Add Fisher for leadership, Huerter/Smithen for the dirty work, Richard for instant offense. Shivers role still needs to be better defined but he is one of the top 3 or 4 guys on the team (and probably the most experienced). That's your 8 man rotation. Why do teams with historically unathletic bigs and undersized 4's like UVM beat teams like Siena with guys like Anosike? There is a reason. For example, remember Brian Voelkel? That little 6-6 glue guy on UVM. He MURDERED us. And he was only a 6 ppg game guy. Why? 1-HIGH points per shot - career 1.40(Oduro 1.13). 2-HIGH rebound percentage - 8.4 rebs per 30 mpg....(Oduro 5.68) 3-HIGH assist ratio - 2.3 to 1 - (Oduro 0.36 to 1) Winning is about statistics. Get more points than the other team. If you don't believe in statistics, join Jimmy's staff. If you play a big man who can't shoot or take care of the ball....he better be able to plus rebound, defend, and score efficiently in order to make up for those other deficiences. Oduro, right now, is a guy who has the 'look' but not the real results. He's not rebounding well, scoring efficiently, blocking shots, getting steals, or taking care of the ball. He is a net plus nowhere statistically right now. Nowhere. He's just sneaky about it because he looks so good while doing it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 12:49:34 GMT -5
Prince Oduro would not play nearly as much for Becker. Becker is more analytical. And that's why he wins.
|
|
|
|
Post by greengold4ever on Jan 19, 2018 13:07:23 GMT -5
Man, you guys undervalue Otero. As of right now, he is the best freshman Big the Saints have had since Haddix. (Better than Rossiter, JO and OD were at the same points in their career.) Doesn't mean that he will end up as good as those guys but every minute he plays now will yield dividends down the road. For those that decry the current roster's athleticism, he is the one guy on the roster with + size/strength. He has shown the ability to find open guys out of the post and is good facing the basket. His post moves need work but there aren't many Freshman with polished post moves. I say, get him as many minutes as possible now, especially with Penn and Horn. Those are the guys you build around. Add Fisher for leadership, Huerter/Smithen for the dirty work, Richard for instant offense. Shivers role still needs to be better defined but he is one of the top 3 or 4 guys on the team (and probably the most experienced). That's your 8 man rotation. Why do teams with historically unathletic bigs and undersized 4's like UVM beat teams like Siena with guys like Anosike? There is a reason. For example, remember Brian Voelkel? That little 6-6 glue guy on UVM. He MURDERED us. And he was only a 6 ppg game guy. Why? 1-HIGH points per shot - career 1.40(Oduro 1.13). 2-HIGH rebound percentage - 8.4 rebs per 30 mpg....(Oduro 5.68) 3-HIGH assist ratio - 2.3 to 1 - (Oduro 0.36 to 1) Winning is about statistics. Get more points than the other team. If you don't believe in statistics, join Jimmy's staff. If you play a big man who can't shoot or take care of the ball....he better be able to plus rebound, defend, and score efficiently in order to make up for those other deficiences. Oduro, right now, is a guy who has the 'look' but not the real results. He's not rebounding well, scoring efficiently, blocking shots, getting steals, or taking care of the ball. He is a net plus nowhere statistically right now. Nowhere. He's just sneaky about it because he looks so good while doing it. agreed, and without even using numbers/analytics...............the old eye test reveals everything above............offensively, get Oduro very low in the block, and he is a beast with super efficient results, but when he ventures outside that sample area, bad things tend to happen (holding the ball, forced dribbling, a bad turnover)......on defense & just overall rebounding, he needs the desire to just buy in, as he has the "physical" tools to be very good in both departments (and that doesn't mean he has to block a bunch of shots either, although that would be a bonus)................he does have a lot of upside though, and as a frosh is ahead of the curve..........the hope is that he could follow the Rossiter track, and really evolve into something special (although it is gonna take some work to get the FT pct to being even 60%), yet will he get that from the current staff, tbd............. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 13:33:50 GMT -5
Freshman year numbers:
------------ PPS --- Reb/30 -- Blk/30 -- Stl/30 -- A/TO
Franklin --- 1.80 --- 6.56 --- 0.92 --- 1.13 ---- 0.69
Haddix ---- 1.41 --- 8.22 --- 0.97 --- 0.72 ---- 0.38
Anosike --- 1.31 --- 8.30 --- 1.09 --- 0.80 ---- 0.21
Bisping ---- 1.19 --- 5.50 --- 0.17 --- 1.03 ---- 0.55
P. Oduro --- 1.13 --- 5.69 --- 0.83 --- 0.32 ---- 0.37
Rossiter ---- 0.93 --- 7.90 --- 2.09 --- 1.36 ---- 0.94
Ogunyemi -- 0.81 --- 5.09 --- 2.04 --- 0.46 ---- 0.64
Obviously Bisping, RyRo, and JO's PPS skyrocketed starting in their Soph year's...and so did RyRo and Bisping's rebounding.
Oduro may be looking 'ok' vs. this group as a frosh....but they all took big leaps later which he'll also have to live up to. JO, for example, jumped from dead last as a frosh to 1.45 afterwards.
FT shooting is one thing that is a handicap that only Anosike shares with him. And, as a result, Anosike's PPS never increased. All these other guys past him, as he stayed similar all 4 years. RyRo was a GREAT FT shooter...junior year his PPS was up to 1.56.
Until Oduro fixes FTs, he can never improve to the same level offensively that RyRo did and since he's an even worse FT shooter and rebounder as well...he may never achieve any of the 'heights' these players did.
|
|
|
|
Post by MTS on Jan 19, 2018 13:50:50 GMT -5
Prince Oduro would not play nearly as much for Becker. Becker is more analytical. And that's why he wins. He wins because the AE is weak and he recruits like a demon. Analytics work more in baseball than basketball or football. Not saying some stats don’t help. But I prefer the “eye test”. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 13:53:01 GMT -5
Prince Oduro would not play nearly as much for Becker. Becker is more analytical. And that's why he wins. He wins because the AE is weak and he recruits like a demon. Analytics work more in baseball than basketball or football. Not saying some stats don’t help. But I prefer the “eye test”. The people who say this are the ones who don't understand it. Until he starts rebounding, blocking shots, and making his FTs Prince Oduro is a threat to be to center what Evan Hymes was to PGs. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 14:24:04 GMT -5
Ok, this is going to be too 'numbery' for many to understand but here's the jist of Oduro's problem:
If you have a 50% FG% and only shoot 2 pt shots...that's only a 1.00 PPS. BAD for a big man...and you'd have the worst offense in D1 at that number. You need to make FTs or 3's to increase it.
If you take 10 shots, make 5 (50% FG%), and get fouled 5 times (for 2 shots) and only make 3 of 10 FTs...that's a 1.30 PPS and it's so-so for a big man. It would mean he had 13 pts on 10 FGA = 1.30
However, I highly doubt that Oduro is going to get fouled the 1 time for every FG he makes that he'd need to in order to get there.
Right now, he has 68 FTAs vs. 77 FGs made.
Based on the above scenario, that equates to 34 Fouls.
So 34 fouls vs. 77 FGs made is not nearly enough to get him there....so he's basically getting to the line under half as much as he'd need to in order to have a chance at a decent PPS with his current FG%/FT%.
In order to make up for that shortfall in FTA, Oduro would then have to increase his FG% up to 60%+ or get his FT% up 50 or 60% just to become a so-so offensive big, statistically.
That's his issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by goldsaint17 on Jan 19, 2018 14:32:34 GMT -5
Ok, this is going to be too 'numbery' for many to understand but here's the jist of Oduro's problem: If you have a 50% FG% and only shoot 2 pt shots...that's only a 1.00 PPS (10pts/10shots). BAD for a big man...and you'd have the worst offense in D1 at that number. If you take 10 shots, make 5 (50% FG%), and get fouled 5 times (for 2 shots) and only make 3 of 10 FTs...that's a 1.30 PPS and it's so-so for a big man. It would mean he had 13 pts on 10 FGA = 1.30 However, I highly doubt that Oduro is going to get fouled the 1 time for every FG he makes that he'd need to in order to get there. Right now, he has 68 FTAs vs. 77 FGs made. Based on the above scenario, that equates to 34 Fouls. So 34 fouls vs. 77 FGAs made is not nearly enough to get him there....so he's basically getting to the line under half as much as he'd need to in order to have a chance at a decent PPS with his current FG%/FT%. In order to make up for that shortfall in FTA, Oduro would then have to increase his FG% up to 60%+ or get his FT% up 50 or 60% just to become a so-so offensive big, statistically. That's his issue. How does Prince compare to Jordan Washington’s junior year at Iona? Not making quite as many free throws and not rebounding quite as well, but I sort of liken Prince to Washington from the perspective of being able to flat out get his own bucket in the post and draw attention of opposing defenses. I think if Prince loses 10 pounds and gets a bit more comfortable with the ball in his hands that’s the type of player he is... a wrecking ball offensively who isn’t going to play 32+ minutes but can flat out get his. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 14:34:10 GMT -5
Numbers are fun and interesting. Compiling the info is kinda tedious for us adhd types. You keep posting them, I’ll keep reading them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 14:39:03 GMT -5
Ok, this is going to be too 'numbery' for many to understand but here's the jist of Oduro's problem: If you have a 50% FG% and only shoot 2 pt shots...that's only a 1.00 PPS (10pts/10shots). BAD for a big man...and you'd have the worst offense in D1 at that number. If you take 10 shots, make 5 (50% FG%), and get fouled 5 times (for 2 shots) and only make 3 of 10 FTs...that's a 1.30 PPS and it's so-so for a big man. It would mean he had 13 pts on 10 FGA = 1.30 However, I highly doubt that Oduro is going to get fouled the 1 time for every FG he makes that he'd need to in order to get there. Right now, he has 68 FTAs vs. 77 FGs made. Based on the above scenario, that equates to 34 Fouls. So 34 fouls vs. 77 FGAs made is not nearly enough to get him there....so he's basically getting to the line under half as much as he'd need to in order to have a chance at a decent PPS with his current FG%/FT%. In order to make up for that shortfall in FTA, Oduro would then have to increase his FG% up to 60%+ or get his FT% up 50 or 60% just to become a so-so offensive big, statistically. That's his issue. How does Prince compare to Jordan Washington’s junior year at Iona? Not making quite as many free throws and not rebounding quite as well, but I sort of liken Prince to Washington from the perspective of being able to flat out get his own bucket in the post and draw attention of opposing defenses. I think if Prince loses 10 pounds and gets a bit more comfortable with the ball in his hands that’s the type of player he is... a wrecking ball offensively who isn’t going to play 32+ minutes but can flat out get his. As a junior, JW had 10.3 rebounds per 30 minutes...double Oduro's boards and his PPS was 1.36 to Oduro's 1.13. He had a higher rate of getting to the FT line, 60% FT%, and a 51.4% FG%. Last year, JW was at 10.5 rebs and a 1.49 PPS. He increase is FT rate as well as his FG% to 55.2% and FT% to 68.6%. JW attempted 236 FTAs last year while playing only 21.7 mpg. Oduro is nowhere near JW right now. Nowhere. |
|
Quackman
Team Captain
Posts: 2,474
Dislikes:
|
Post by Quackman on Jan 19, 2018 14:41:58 GMT -5
He wins because the AE is weak and he recruits like a demon. Analytics work more in baseball than basketball or football. Not saying some stats don’t help. But I prefer the “eye test”. The people who say this are the ones who don't understand it. Until he starts rebounding, blocking shots, and making his FTs Prince Oduro is a threat to be to center what Evan Hymes was to PGs. Far be it for me to agree with mts but, I'd argue that those who rely so heavily on Stats are the ones who don't truly understand it. Basketball is about chemistry, flow, pace and momentum. Baseball is, essentially, a series of one on one matchups featuring the pitcher and the batter. Basketball is a free moving team sport. There is no one way to do things. Just look at the ACC: Virginia wins playing their "pack line" defense, ND has had to play their "Burn" offense that uses clock to shorten the game. Duke and UNC want to run you off the court. Syracuse wants to use their athletic, long wings and 2/3 zone while Louisville pressures the ball and dares guys to attack the rim where their rim protectors hang out. All have been successful and for different reasons. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Dislikes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 14:46:06 GMT -5
The people who say this are the ones who don't understand it. Until he starts rebounding, blocking shots, and making his FTs Prince Oduro is a threat to be to center what Evan Hymes was to PGs. Far be it for me to agree with mts but, I'd argue that those who rely so heavily on Stats are the ones who don't truly understand it. Basketball is about chemistry, flow, pace and momentum. Baseball is, essentially, a series of one on one matchups featuring the pitcher and the batter. Basketball is a free moving team sport. There is no one way to do things. Just look at the ACC: Virginia wins playing their "pack line" defense, ND has had to play their "Burn" offense that uses clock to shorten the game. Duke and UNC want to run you off the court. Syracuse wants to use their athletic, long wings and 2/3 zone while Louisville pressures the ball and dares guys to attack the rim where their rim protectors hang out. All have been successful and for different reasons. It is a combination of both stats and chemistry. To ignore either is folly. Sometimes playing the right players statistically can also come off as 'chemistry'. |
|
|
|
Post by goldsaint17 on Jan 19, 2018 14:48:46 GMT -5
How does Prince compare to Jordan Washington’s junior year at Iona? Not making quite as many free throws and not rebounding quite as well, but I sort of liken Prince to Washington from the perspective of being able to flat out get his own bucket in the post and draw attention of opposing defenses. I think if Prince loses 10 pounds and gets a bit more comfortable with the ball in his hands that’s the type of player he is... a wrecking ball offensively who isn’t going to play 32+ minutes but can flat out get his. As a junior, JW had 10.3 rebounds per 30 minutes...double Oduro's boards and his PPS was 1.36 to Oduro's 1.13. He had a higher rate of getting to the FT line, 60% FT%, and a 51.4% FG%. Last year, JW was at 10.5 rebs and a 1.49 PPS. He increase is FT rate as well as his FG% to 55.2% and FT% to 68.6%. JW attempted 236 FTAs last year while playing only 21.7 mpg. Oduro is nowhere near JW right now. Nowhere. In fairness JW was 2-3 years older than Prince is and had spent 2 years playing college basketball, combined with the space that JW had with 4 guards who spaced things out like crazy. As a junior his lineup around him was Casimir (shooter), English (shooter and penetrator), Isaiah Williams (shooter) and either Ibn Muhammad, Deyshonne Much, or Rountree. Heck the game that Prince had against Hofstra when we spaced it out even with significantly less talented/worse-shooting personnel Prince had a monster night. I was thinking more from the perspective of where Prince could be. To me he’s never going to be the complete player Rossiter was but will be a better post scorer than OD or Javion. Haddix or JW might be the comp. |
|
Quackman
Team Captain
Posts: 2,474
Dislikes:
|
Post by Quackman on Jan 19, 2018 14:50:02 GMT -5
Ok, this is going to be too 'numbery' for many to understand but here's the jist of Oduro's problem: If you have a 50% FG% and only shoot 2 pt shots...that's only a 1.00 PPS (10pts/10shots). BAD for a big man...and you'd have the worst offense in D1 at that number. If you take 10 shots, make 5 (50% FG%), and get fouled 5 times (for 2 shots) and only make 3 of 10 FTs...that's a 1.30 PPS and it's so-so for a big man. It would mean he had 13 pts on 10 FGA = 1.30 However, I highly doubt that Oduro is going to get fouled the 1 time for every FG he makes that he'd need to in order to get there. Right now, he has 68 FTAs vs. 77 FGs made. Based on the above scenario, that equates to 34 Fouls. So 34 fouls vs. 77 FGAs made is not nearly enough to get him there....so he's basically getting to the line under half as much as he'd need to in order to have a chance at a decent PPS with his current FG%/FT%. In order to make up for that shortfall in FTA, Oduro would then have to increase his FG% up to 60%+ or get his FT% up 50 or 60% just to become a so-so offensive big, statistically. That's his issue. How does Prince compare to Jordan Washington’s junior year at Iona? Not making quite as many free throws and not rebounding quite as well, but I sort of liken Prince to Washington from the perspective of being able to flat out get his own bucket in the post and draw attention of opposing defenses. I think if Prince loses 10 pounds and gets a bit more comfortable with the ball in his hands that’s the type of player he is... a wrecking ball offensively who isn’t going to play 32+ minutes but can flat out get his. Yeah, I don't think it is a fair comparison to compare Otero to Washington at 22 (or however old he was) or any of the Siena players as upperclassman. This current team doesn't really need Otero to be a dominant rebounder because how well guys like Penn, Smithen, Huerter and Shivers rebound. Sure, I'd like him to get a couple more but his rebounding (or lack thereof) hasn't hurt the saints. They do need offensive production from the post, which he gives them. Otero is solid now, but far from a finished work. The best way to get him better is to play him. His stats/production are as good as anyone who might take his spot but his upside far exceeds the other guys. He has shown the ability to pass out of double teams and is really good when going at the rim. Would rather not see him shoot the jumpers and he needs work on his post moves. Overall, his defense is fine but still a work in progress. I say play him 25 minutes a night. |
|
|
|
Post by playerparentcoach on Jan 19, 2018 14:50:26 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks Jimmy should get some props for giving THJ room to find his game? Sent from my SM-G935P using proboards Probably. Rex stumbled on Tommy and Jordon out of desperation and his roulette type substitution patterns. All he’s done all season is throw various combos of players in and out to see if anything would stick. Kids are in and out of his doghouse on a revolving basis. Don’t know how you can recruit and spend so much time with these kids and be so out of touch with their strengths / weaknesses and skill sets. He is not out of touch he just decides on playing time based on his agenda not how well a player is playing. I saw TH playing pickup in the summer and he looked great. His confidence was high. His team kept winning and he was,handling the ball and knocking down shots. He should have gotten a chance to earn mins at the 4....And Horn showed what he could do in Canada without Nico....it took Nico getting run off for Horn to get back out there. |
|
