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Post by saintsgrad on May 4, 2020 18:40:47 GMT -5
Gotta respect a man who likes what he says. Anyways, you can't generalize an entire conference as the same thing. Dayton's program is significantly better than Fordham's, and Portland isn't the same as Gonzaga etc etc. You can say this conference is more prestigious or filled with high majors but generalizing it as all the same doesn't make too much sense.
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Post by phillyfan on May 5, 2020 10:11:13 GMT -5
I think of A-10 very much a mid-major at this point in terms of talent, facilities and attendance Only Dayton stands out as a major.Go back to early days of A-10 and it was a major when it included Temple under Chaney, Xavier and some great UMass teams under Calipari. I'm probably missing a couple as well. In the past 10 years the a10 sent 32 representatives (average of over 3 teams per season, and reached 5 sweet 16s two elite 8s and 1 final four. That's a really impressive run, and I'm thinking thanks to George Mason and VCU in particular. And they do typically get 3 teams in the tournament. But if you look at the overall character of that league in terms of talent , facilities and attendance I think they're much closer to the MAAC, than they are to the teams in what you call the High Majors.High majors get 5-6 teams in tournament every year and more- hell, the Big 10 was projected to have 10 teams in tournament this year. The average attendance for the A-10 last year was around 4,000 and it was skewed by Daytons average of 12-13,000. Heck, Siena would have been 4th in average attendance in the league and we were only a few hundred away from being 2nd. Also, here in Philly , St Joe's fans call the A-10 mid major and are dismayed by the conference's weakening over time. So overall, I'd stand by the Big 5 plus the Big East as the majors, and put everyone else in the mid major, low major category.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 5, 2020 13:14:58 GMT -5
In the past 10 years the a10 sent 32 representatives (average of over 3 teams per season, and reached 5 sweet 16s two elite 8s and 1 final four. That's a really impressive run, and I'm thinking thanks to George Mason and VCU in particular. And they do typically get 3 teams in the tournament. But if you look at the overall character of that league in terms of talent , facilities and attendance I think they're much closer to the MAAC, than they are to the teams in what you call the High Majors.High majors get 5-6 teams in tournament every year and more- hell, the Big 10 was projected to have 10 teams in tournament this year. The average attendance for the A-10 last year was around 4,000 and it was skewed by Daytons average of 12-13,000. Heck, Siena would have been 4th in average attendance in the league and we were only a few hundred away from being 2nd. Also, here in Philly , St Joe's fans call the A-10 mid major and are dismayed by the conference's weakening over time. So overall, I'd stand by the Big 5 plus the Big East as the majors, and put everyone else in the mid major, low major category. George Mason and VCU had their NCAA runs as CAA members. It's part of what got them the invites into the A-10. George Mason has been mostly an also-ran ever since it entered the league. I see their fate (and LaSalle's) as similar to what Siena's would have been there. With the occasional exception, the programs that tend to dominate the A-10 have budgets and/or resources that dwarf programs like Siena's, LaSalle's, and George Mason's. Davidson and Richmond are smaller schools that do okay - they don't spend a crazy amount on hoops, but both have billion dollar endowments.
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Post by phillyfan on May 5, 2020 14:31:29 GMT -5
You're right, I stand corrected on GM and VCU! So who was in the final 4 from the A-10 in the last 10 years? When Butler went , they were in the Horizon league. I disagree with you on Siena's fate in A-10. LaSalle is nothing like Siena at all. It's really lost its way both academically and athletically the last 2o years. Their gym is a dump and basketball has gotten lost in the competitive Big 5 ( 6 counting Drexel) vs Joes, Nova, Temple, Penn etc. Don't know what happened to GM- good facilities, good academics. I thought Hewitt would do well there. In terms of an overall program, I think Siena is ahead of LaSalle, Joes, Drexel and about equal to Penn, and behind Temple and Nova. ( Not behind Temple by a whole lot). I think Siena would do very well in the A-10. With a higher caliber league you're going to attract higher talent. In terms of a "franchise," Siena is already in the top third of that 14 team league.
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Post by MTS on May 5, 2020 15:53:52 GMT -5
That's a really impressive run, and I'm thinking thanks to George Mason and VCU in particular. And they do typically get 3 teams in the tournament. But if you look at the overall character of that league in terms of talent , facilities and attendance I think they're much closer to the MAAC, than they are to the teams in what you call the High Majors.High majors get 5-6 teams in tournament every year and more- hell, the Big 10 was projected to have 10 teams in tournament this year. The average attendance for the A-10 last year was around 4,000 and it was skewed by Daytons average of 12-13,000. Heck, Siena would have been 4th in average attendance in the league and we were only a few hundred away from being 2nd. Also, here in Philly , St Joe's fans call the A-10 mid major and are dismayed by the conference's weakening over time. So overall, I'd stand by the Big 5 plus the Big East as the majors, and put everyone else in the mid major, low major category. George Mason and VCU had their NCAA runs as CAA members. It's part of what got them the invites into the A-10. George Mason has been mostly an also-ran ever since it entered the league. I see their fate (and LaSalle's) as similar to what Siena's would have been there. With the occasional exception, the programs that tend to dominate the A-10 have budgets and/or resources that dwarf programs like Siena's, LaSalle's, and George Mason's. Davidson and Richmond are smaller schools that do okay - they don't spend a crazy amount on hoops, but both have billion dollar endowments. I think the endowment is overrated in athletics— Harvard would be winning national championships and pay their coach whatever they wanted. Schools don’t use it for sports. As far as the A10 goes I think as long as Siena had a strong head coach and admin they could do well. Look at SBU. They’ve done pretty well. And Siena has many advantages over them.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 5, 2020 16:12:14 GMT -5
You're right, I stand corrected on GM and VCU! So who was in the final 4 from the A-10 in the last 10 years? When Butler went , they were in the Horizon league. I disagree with you on Siena's fate in A-10. LaSalle is nothing like Siena at all. It's really lost its way both academically and athletically the last 2o years. Their gym is a dump and basketball has gotten lost in the competitive Big 5 ( 6 counting Drexel) vs Joes, Nova, Temple, Penn etc. Don't know what happened to GM- good facilities, good academics. I thought Hewitt would do well there. In terms of an overall program, I think Siena is ahead of LaSalle, Joes, Drexel and about equal to Penn, and behind Temple and Nova. ( Not behind Temple by a whole lot). I think Siena would do very well in the A-10. With a higher caliber league you're going to attract higher talent. In terms of a "franchise," Siena is already in the top third of that 14 team league. The last A-10 program to make a final 4 was UMass in 1996 and that was vacated because Marcus Camby was ruled ineligible for NCAA violations. Siena has barely competed in the MAAC the past 10 years. I assure you they wouldn't have fared better in the A-10 in that same span. It would have been much worse.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on May 6, 2020 15:43:58 GMT -5
You're right, I stand corrected on GM and VCU! So who was in the final 4 from the A-10 in the last 10 years? When Butler went , they were in the Horizon league. I disagree with you on Siena's fate in A-10. LaSalle is nothing like Siena at all. It's really lost its way both academically and athletically the last 2o years. Their gym is a dump and basketball has gotten lost in the competitive Big 5 ( 6 counting Drexel) vs Joes, Nova, Temple, Penn etc. Don't know what happened to GM- good facilities, good academics. I thought Hewitt would do well there. In terms of an overall program, I think Siena is ahead of LaSalle, Joes, Drexel and about equal to Penn, and behind Temple and Nova. ( Not behind Temple by a whole lot). I think Siena would do very well in the A-10. With a higher caliber league you're going to attract higher talent. In terms of a "franchise," Siena is already in the top third of that 14 team league. The last A-10 program to make a final 4 was UMass in 1996 and that was vacated because Marcus Camby was ruled ineligible for NCAA violations. Siena has barely competed in the MAAC the past 10 years. I assure you they wouldn't have fared better in the A-10 in that same span. It would have been much worse. The Atlantic 10 is owning the 2011 ff appearance by vcu in its media guide. As they should, since you guys want to discount Gonzaga as a mid major even though they play in the west coast since they go to final fours. Not sure why it is such a stretch to say the a10 is better than a mid major conference given all the data but like I said, each have their own definition. They are better than the mid majors worse than the power conferences. It is a three (really four) tiered system.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 6, 2020 16:35:35 GMT -5
The last A-10 program to make a final 4 was UMass in 1996 and that was vacated because Marcus Camby was ruled ineligible for NCAA violations. Siena has barely competed in the MAAC the past 10 years. I assure you they wouldn't have fared better in the A-10 in that same span. It would have been much worse. The Atlantic 10 is owning the 2011 ff appearance by vcu in its media guide. As they should, since you guys want to discount Gonzaga as a mid major even though they play in the west coast since they go to final fours. Not sure why it is such a stretch to say the a10 is better than a mid major conference given all the data but like I said, each have their own definition. They are better than the mid majors worse than the power conferences. It is a three (really four) tiered system. They can own it all the want. But the fact is VCU went to the Final Four in 2011 as a CAA member, not the A-10. If a sole team from a conference making a Final Four is the standard for being a high-major conference, then the Missouri Valley (Loyola-Chicago) and Horizon League (Butler) are in that category too. I'm sure you can agree that logic doesn't work when applied to those leagues. All of division 1 is considered "major" college sports. Within that category, there are three commonly understood subcategories: high-major, mid-major, and low-major. Which category a school falls in depends on a mix of a lot of factors including, not not limited to: years of consistent national success, facilities, and budget. Gonzaga has the budget and consistent national success, but not the facilities. Two out of three is enough. Northwestern has the budget and facilities, but not the success. Good enough - they're in a big 5 league after all. Dayton has the facilities and budget, but the consistent national success isn't quite there yet. They've been good, but not regular top 25, great 8, final 4 appearances good. Big 5 programs typically spend anywhere from about $5 million to over $19 million annually on men's hoops. What you'll find is that there is a big gap within leagues on the resources of league members. You claim the WCC is a major conference, but only Gonzaga and BYU have major conference resources. There's a big gap to the 3rd largest budget of San Francisco. After that, everyone else is spending around the same as Siena or less. Same with the A-10. There's a big gap from the top of their league (VCU, Davidson, Umass) to the bottom (Davidson). There are three A-10 teams with smaller budgets and inferior facilities compared to Siena. So looking at the facilities and budgets of WCC and A-10 programs, some of which are comparable or inferior to Siena, is Siena a major program? No - and neither are they. Some random examples from different levels of D1 from 2016 numbers (for illustrative purposes, I'm sure there are more current numbers available): Duke $19,507,686.00 Kentucky $19,180,059.00 Villanova $11,120,378.00 Gonzaga $8,874,752.00 St. John's $8,323,127.00 Xavier $7,835,880.00 Creighton $7,665,992.00 BYU $6,999,780.00 Boston College $6,212,181.00 VCU $6,100,756.00 Seton Hall $6,011,447.00 Dayton $5,637,549.00 Butler $5,489,704.00 UMass $5,324,089.00 Fordham $4,436,291.00 San Francisco $4,254,947.00 Saint Mary's $3,467,559.00 St. Bonaventure $3,449,008.00 Siena $3,102,278.00 La Salle $3,096,492.00 George Washington $2,943,015.00 Pepperdine $2,830,636.00 Davidson $2,638,281.00 Quinnipiac $2,609,446.00 Fairfield $2,582,865.00 Iona $2,514,963.00 Saint Peter's $1,490,850.00 Hampton $998,748.00 Mississippi Valley State $492,545.00 Alcorn State $465,614.00 Source: www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/11/17441968/ncaa-revenue-expense-statistics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major
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Post by phillyfan on May 6, 2020 17:26:59 GMT -5
"There are three A-10 teams ...with inferior facilities than Siena" I don't know what you base this on- only Dayton has a larger arena. GM and VCU top out at around 7500. And the rest are below 5000.St Joes is 4000, LaSalle 2500. Fordham around 3,000 capacity. And again, Siena would have been fourth in average attendance in the A-10. GM was second at 6700 average attendance. And I'd add that with the exception of Dayton, only Siena gets broad community fan support. That just doesn't happen in the A-10 or MAAC. From a "franchise" level very few mid-major teams on the East coast can compare with what Siena has built in Albany. Albany is a great sports town and college basketball town. I don't think you guys really appreciate what you have. BTW, regarding Siena's record of the last 10 years: If you have the wrong head coaches, you're going to lose no matter what level you are at. But Siena has proven that it's a very attractive job and when we've had the right coach we've had great success. With the right coach there's no reason why Siena could not have success at the A-10 level. Higher level conference attracts commensurately higher level players.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on May 6, 2020 18:12:25 GMT -5
"There are three A-10 teams ...with inferior facilities than Siena" I don't know what you base this on- only Dayton has a larger arena. GM and VCU top out at around 7500. And the rest are below 5000.St Joes is 4000, LaSalle 2500. Fordham around 3,000 capacity. And again, Siena would have been fourth in average attendance in the A-10. GM was second at 6700 average attendance. And I'd add that with the exception of Dayton, only Siena gets broad community fan support. That just doesn't happen in the A-10 or MAAC. From a "franchise" level very few mid-major teams on the East coast can compare with what Siena has built in Albany. Albany is a great sports town and college basketball town. I don't think you guys really appreciate what you have. BTW, regarding Siena's record of the last 10 years: If you have the wrong head coaches, you're going to lose no matter what level you are at. But Siena has proven that it's a very attractive job and when we've had the right coach we've had great success. With the right coach there's no reason why Siena could not have success at the A-10 level. Higher level conference attracts commensurately higher level players. How nice an arena is doesn't depend solely on size. George Mason's EagleBank Arena actually seats 10,000, and like Dayton and VCU's arenas it is on campus - that's a better situation that playing off campus downtown. Siena will never have anything like them on campus. True top programs don't have 10 years of bad coaching. You will never see that happen at places like VCU or Dayton.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on May 6, 2020 19:07:44 GMT -5
The Atlantic 10 is owning the 2011 ff appearance by vcu in its media guide. As they should, since you guys want to discount Gonzaga as a mid major even though they play in the west coast since they go to final fours. Not sure why it is such a stretch to say the a10 is better than a mid major conference given all the data but like I said, each have their own definition. They are better than the mid majors worse than the power conferences. It is a three (really four) tiered system. They can own it all the want. But the fact is VCU went to the Final Four in 2011 as a CAA member, not the A-10. If a sole team from a conference making a Final Four is the standard for being a high-major conference, then the Missouri Valley (Loyola-Chicago) and Horizon League (Butler) are in that category too. I'm sure you can agree that logic doesn't work when applied to those leagues. All of division 1 is considered "major" college sports. Within that category, there are three commonly understood subcategories: high-major, mid-major, and low-major. Which category a school falls in depends on a mix of a lot of factors including, not not limited to: years of consistent national success, facilities, and budget. Gonzaga has the budget and consistent national success, but not the facilities. Two out of three is enough. Northwestern has the budget and facilities, but not the success. Good enough - they're in a big 5 league after all. Dayton has the facilities and budget, but the consistent national success isn't quite there yet. They've been good, but not regular top 25, great 8, final 4 appearances good. Big 5 programs typically spend anywhere from about $5 million to over $19 million annually on men's hoops. What you'll find is that there is a big gap within leagues on the resources of league members. You claim the WCC is a major conference, but only Gonzaga and BYU have major conference resources. There's a big gap to the 3rd largest budget of San Francisco. After that, everyone else is spending around the same as Siena or less. Same with the A-10. There's a big gap from the top of their league (VCU, Davidson, Umass) to the bottom (Davidson). There are three A-10 teams with smaller budgets and inferior facilities compared to Siena. So looking at the facilities and budgets of WCC and A-10 programs, some of which are comparable or inferior to Siena, is Siena a major program? No - and neither are they. Some random examples from different levels of D1 from 2016 numbers (for illustrative purposes, I'm sure there are more current numbers available): Duke $19,507,686.00 Kentucky $19,180,059.00 Villanova $11,120,378.00 Gonzaga $8,874,752.00 St. John's $8,323,127.00 Xavier $7,835,880.00 Creighton $7,665,992.00 BYU $6,999,780.00 Boston College $6,212,181.00 VCU $6,100,756.00 Seton Hall $6,011,447.00 Dayton $5,637,549.00 Butler $5,489,704.00 UMass $5,324,089.00 Fordham $4,436,291.00 San Francisco $4,254,947.00 Saint Mary's $3,467,559.00 St. Bonaventure $3,449,008.00 Siena $3,102,278.00 La Salle $3,096,492.00 George Washington $2,943,015.00 Pepperdine $2,830,636.00 Davidson $2,638,281.00 Quinnipiac $2,609,446.00 Fairfield $2,582,865.00 Iona $2,514,963.00 Saint Peter's $1,490,850.00 Hampton $998,748.00 Mississippi Valley State $492,545.00 Alcorn State $465,614.00 Source: www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/11/17441968/ncaa-revenue-expense-statistics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-majorButler is in the big East, but who said a final four appearance is the only factor? I certainly didn't. Just pointing out that leagues generally include the postseasonaccomplishments of its members, regardless of when it happened. You can cite budget and facilities all you want, I look at accomplishments. What do they do on the basketball court? And you judge that by number of bids, top 25 finishes, ncaa tournament success ie sweet 16, elite 8, and final four. Facilities don't matter, otherwise quinny would have won the league by now. You want to call northwestern a power 5, which I agree, then Duquesne is a major. They are both members of conferences that are better than mid major and low major conferences. If Siena went to the a10 it would be a step up in comp. there is a reason why the west coast conference, Atlantic 10 and mountain west consistently finish 8, 9 and 10 in the net rankings and its predecessor rpi. In the past 10 years the a10 finished as high as 6 and no lower than 11th. The mountain west finished in the top 10 7 times. The west coast did it 6 times. The Missouri valley actually was better but recently lost creighton and Wichita state, major blows. It is not luck. It's a simple point and the reason why the a10 and mountain west are not included in most mid major polls. To recap: High major (power 5 plus big East, American). Majority of ncaa revenue Major (Atlantic 10, west coast, mountain west). Most of rest of ncaa pie Mid major (11-20). Occasional multiple bid, second round win, or run Low major (21-30). Rarely wins NCAA tournament game
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Post by phillyfan on May 6, 2020 19:35:28 GMT -5
Butler is now in the Big East, immediately prior they were in A-10 for a few years after they left Horizon. Not sure it's worth having a separate category if there are only 3 teams in it.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Jan 16, 2021 17:38:45 GMT -5
In the January 11 poll siena checked in at #36 in the other receiving votes category. They would have been in the top 25 but Dabo swiinney won't vote for them until they play at least 10 games.
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