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Post by MTS on Aug 1, 2019 13:28:11 GMT -5
If he says no, I wonder if there's even any chance for anyone else at this point. Time's running out and there's still 2 'ships open. I mean, they could get by without filling it and continue to go all in on 2020. Without filling anything, they'd have 3 to fill even if King got a scholarship. And that could be fine... However, without another difference maker, the risk for yet another semi's or finals exit is greater...and we'd again be playing for the following year like always. If they got Carpenter and others, it would look great on paper again but...you never know who will then leave. I'm sick of Siena always being one step or one year behind due to departures and/or injuries etc. We always think we're set up to win NEXT YEAR but next year never comes. I'm sick of always being on the hump. It's time to finally get over it. I mean, Siena can’t control that their coach left after one year, lost a good recruit with him, lost a rotation player in July, and had a rotation player fail out. All of those are things you can’t project happening. Regardless of what happens with Dunn, Siena has the best player in the league, 2 highly-touted transfers, a great recruit, and some returning rotation players. That’s enough to be in the mix. There are still some other transfers out there that could be pursued— especially sit-out guys— that would help out long-term. And pretty much anyone out there still is probably somewhat desperate and would commit very quickly if we pushed. Question is how much do we want a sit-out over a bigger 2020 class. Could also look at any of the grad transfers still out there or any of the guys in the portal from Cleveland State since all are likely getting waivers (Dibaji Walker is a guy who Abe looked at and might make some sense). I guess realistically, if we wanted someone in the portal we’d have already tried to get them. Though that said, they didn’t expect Sloan to leave so maybe they’d fill a spot that they wouldn’t have filled otherwise. Remember if Walker is here, Harris very likely is not. I’ll take Harris. Who knows maybe King replaces what we lost in Richard.
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mike60
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Post by mike60 on Aug 1, 2019 19:42:09 GMT -5
KK, I feel the way you do sometimes, but sometimes I don't understand where you are coming from. Do you feel the way you do because we can't catch a break or do you feel that Carm and crew are not doing a good job closing. You also imply that what we have and who they've recruited are not sufficient to win the Maac. Other than Iona, who is better than we are? We beat Rider last year and yet you seem to favor them over us. That means to me we have regressed rather than progressed. Don't think I'm arguing with you. I'm just confused.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Aug 1, 2019 19:56:17 GMT -5
I hate the off-season.
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Aug 1, 2019 20:02:39 GMT -5
I mean, Siena can’t control that their coach left after one year, lost a good recruit with him, lost a rotation player in July, and had a rotation player fail out. All of those are things you can’t project happening. Regardless of what happens with Dunn, Siena has the best player in the league, 2 highly-touted transfers, a great recruit, and some returning rotation players. That’s enough to be in the mix. There are still some other transfers out there that could be pursued— especially sit-out guys— that would help out long-term. And pretty much anyone out there still is probably somewhat desperate and would commit very quickly if we pushed. Question is how much do we want a sit-out over a bigger 2020 class. Could also look at any of the grad transfers still out there or any of the guys in the portal from Cleveland State since all are likely getting waivers (Dibaji Walker is a guy who Abe looked at and might make some sense). I guess realistically, if we wanted someone in the portal we’d have already tried to get them. Though that said, they didn’t expect Sloan to leave so maybe they’d fill a spot that they wouldn’t have filled otherwise. Remember if Walker is here, Harris very likely is not. I’ll take Harris. Who knows maybe King replaces what we lost in Richard. Who is King?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2019 20:16:27 GMT -5
Jordan King CBA kid, signed a couple weeks ago....
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Aug 1, 2019 21:19:28 GMT -5
Jordan King CBA kid, signed a couple weeks ago.... Oh duh! Senior moment
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2019 21:58:42 GMT -5
KK, I feel the way you do sometimes, but sometimes I don't understand where you are coming from. Do you feel the way you do because we can't catch a break or do you feel that Carm and crew are not doing a good job closing. You also imply that what we have and who they've recruited are not sufficient to win the Maac. Other than Iona, who is better than we are? We beat Rider last year and yet you seem to favor them over us. That means to me we have regressed rather than progressed. Don't think I'm arguing with you. I'm just confused. I like Carm so far. However, yes, more could probably have been done with 2019 class so far.
All I see when I look at the MAAC is numbers in my head. For Rider and Iona, even Quinny and others...I think I have a decent idea of what to expect from these teams based on what they have.
Can Siena compete with them? Of course. Is Siena guaranteed better? No.
My thing is, 'go for the jugular'. Don't put a team together that's 'yeah, top 5 or better'. If you have the chance, you put together a team that is the runaway favorite whenever possible.
Siena had Wright...now they have Pickett. These are 2 guys who each are capable of winning a championship in the MAAC. If you fail to put enough talent around PGs like that to win a championship, you've failed big time. Once you have your PG, 80% of the battle should be over. If you then fail after getting that guy for 4 straight years, you are in the wrong business. This is why Patsos is gone. You don't stop at just that 1 guy, you build up the roster until you have 8 or 9 great guys that will bring home a title.
Siena stops at 3-5 and says, ok, let's find a guy who is a nice person that will sit on the bench. No. You go get a 6th starter and a 7th...and an 8th. That's how you build a program. Kids leave. Kids get hurt. If you aren't playing to win NOW. You aren't really playing to win at all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 4:33:02 GMT -5
Just got back from two weeks in Alaska and being totally unplugged from the net/cable. Completely missed the news that Debby Downer is apparently quoting where Siena stated they "aren't playing to win NOW"! As OI posted earlier, I also hate the off season...Breaking News Debby - "numbers in your head" are only an indicator (when nothing better is available) and not an absolute that can be conveniently used to criticize a staff before even seeing a glimpse of the product they will be putting on the floor...just a guess, but I bet you characterize your birthday and Christmas gifts by how they are wrapped vice what's there when unwrapped...sad
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bigsaintg
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Post by bigsaintg on Aug 2, 2019 5:07:41 GMT -5
Just got back from two weeks in Alaska and being totally unplugged from the net/cable. Completely missed the news that Debby Downer is apparently quoting where Siena stated they "aren't playing to win NOW"! As OI posted earlier, I also hate the off season...Breaking News Debby - "numbers in your head" are only an indicator (when nothing better is available) and not an absolute that can be conveniently used to criticize a staff before even seeing a glimpse of the product they will be putting on the floor...just a guess, but I bet you characterize your birthday and Christmas gifts by how they are wrapped vice what's there when unwrapped...sad Should he change his handle to DD
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Aug 2, 2019 6:01:39 GMT -5
KK, I feel the way you do sometimes, but sometimes I don't understand where you are coming from. Do you feel the way you do because we can't catch a break or do you feel that Carm and crew are not doing a good job closing. You also imply that what we have and who they've recruited are not sufficient to win the Maac. Other than Iona, who is better than we are? We beat Rider last year and yet you seem to favor them over us. That means to me we have regressed rather than progressed. Don't think I'm arguing with you. I'm just confused. I like Carm so far. However, yes, more could probably have been done with 2019 class so far. All I see when I look at the MAAC is numbers in my head. For Rider and Iona, even Quinny and others...I think I have a decent idea of what to expect from these teams based on what they have.
Can Siena compete with them? Of course. Is Siena guaranteed better? No. My thing is, 'go for the jugular'. Don't put a team together that's 'yeah, top 5 or better'. If you have the chance, you put together a team that is the runaway favorite whenever possible. Siena had Wright...now they have Pickett. These are 2 guys who each are capable of winning a championship in the MAAC. If you fail to put enough talent around PGs like that to win a championship, you've failed big time. Once you have your PG, 80% of the battle should be over. If you then fail after getting that guy for 4 straight years, you are in the wrong business. This is why Patsos is gone. You don't stop at just that 1 guy, you build up the roster until you have 8 or 9 great guys that will bring home a title. Siena stops at 3-5 and says, ok, let's find a guy who is a nice person that will sit on the bench. No. You go get a 6th starter and a 7th...and an 8th. That's how you build a program. Kids leave. Kids get hurt. If you aren't playing to win NOW. You aren't really playing to win at all.
Patsos is gone because he is not a championship coach, period. It didn't matter who he had on the roster. Nobody can evaluate this team with numbers because there is no data yet on carms numbers. You are doing yourself a disservice by continuing along this line as you are making wild assumptions with incomplete data.
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glen
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Post by glen on Aug 2, 2019 6:35:27 GMT -5
KK - don't you think most coaches try to do what you're suggesting? Patsos aside...he seemed quite lazy... Why don't you add they shouldn't settle for any worse than a top-10 player in their position?
Each "great (on paper)" player you add to the roster makes the next player that much harder to get. Sure, if you're Dook, that may not be the case, but for a team like Siena - once you've got a starting 5 you're now talking about reducing playing time for each next great player. The coach also needs to find players that fits: a) coaching style b) academics c)gels with the roster. Keep in mind too that there are, in many cases, a bunch of other coaches trying to get the same kid with similar sales pitches.
This is hardly an easy task and Carm has done a spectacular job to-date. He kept the real keys to the roster intact and has won a major recruiting battle. Let's just hope his practices, pre-game prep and in-game coaching are as good as his recruiting. If so, we'll be in good shape.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Aug 2, 2019 6:50:55 GMT -5
KK, I feel the way you do sometimes, but sometimes I don't understand where you are coming from. Do you feel the way you do because we can't catch a break or do you feel that Carm and crew are not doing a good job closing. You also imply that what we have and who they've recruited are not sufficient to win the Maac. Other than Iona, who is better than we are? We beat Rider last year and yet you seem to favor them over us. That means to me we have regressed rather than progressed. Don't think I'm arguing with you. I'm just confused. I like Carm so far. However, yes, more could probably have been done with 2019 class so far.
All I see when I look at the MAAC is numbers in my head. For Rider and Iona, even Quinny and others...I think I have a decent idea of what to expect from these teams based on what they have.
Can Siena compete with them? Of course. Is Siena guaranteed better? No.
My thing is, 'go for the jugular'. Don't put a team together that's 'yeah, top 5 or better'. If you have the chance, you put together a team that is the runaway favorite whenever possible.
Siena had Wright...now they have Pickett. These are 2 guys who each are capable of winning a championship in the MAAC. If you fail to put enough talent around PGs like that to win a championship, you've failed big time. Once you have your PG, 80% of the battle should be over. If you then fail after getting that guy for 4 straight years, you are in the wrong business. This is why Patsos is gone. You don't stop at just that 1 guy, you build up the roster until you have 8 or 9 great guys that will bring home a title.
Siena stops at 3-5 and says, ok, let's find a guy who is a nice person that will sit on the bench. No. You go get a 6th starter and a 7th...and an 8th. That's how you build a program. Kids leave. Kids get hurt. If you aren't playing to win NOW. You aren't really playing to win at all.
Carm is going for the jugular. Why do you think he's been trying to get guys like Webster and Dunn? Those are starter quality players when he's already got Pickett/Carey. He's not exactly resting on his laurels. But when you're competing late against other very good schools for good players it gets harder and harder to land them - especially when you already have good players at their position. So you have to prepare yourself for "no" more often than "yes" and sometimes take no one rather than settle when recruiting at a high level. Otherwise you find yourself with a Patsos-type bench.
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Post by billmurray on Aug 2, 2019 7:32:58 GMT -5
I agree. Dunn had a “great “ visit. The staff and team impressed the recruit. They got the first visit. They did everything right and are in the hunt against Big East and other high level programs. I’m sure they are still in contact and selling Siena. Let’s be patient.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 8:02:31 GMT -5
KK - don't you think most coaches try to do what you're suggesting? Patsos aside...he seemed quite lazy... Why don't you add they shouldn't settle for any worse than a top-10 player in their position? Each "great (on paper)" player you add to the roster makes the next player that much harder to get. Sure, if you're Dook, that may not be the case, but for a team like Siena - once you've got a starting 5 you're now talking about reducing playing time for each next great player. The coach also needs to find players that fits: a) coaching style b) academics c)gels with the roster. Keep in mind too that there are, in many cases, a bunch of other coaches trying to get the same kid with similar sales pitches. This is hardly an easy task and Carm has done a spectacular job to-date. He kept the real keys to the roster intact and has won a major recruiting battle. Let's just hope his practices, pre-game prep and in-game coaching are as good as his recruiting. If so, we'll be in good shape. To answer your question frankly: No I don't think most coaches do it or at least come close to achieving it. I've been talking down the MAAC's recruiting for years and it has shown in the rankings. Only Cluess seems to 'go for it' and to a lesser extent Baggett. The rest in the recent MAAC usually doesn't. These guys reload fast and usually with depth. Baggett is much less the game coach but he gets talent. Think about it. Devine Eke averaged 9.5 pts & 6.8 rebs and 1.7 blks in just 24 mpg as a frosh for Maine. He hardly left the bench for Rider. Baggett often coaches them down a bit but there's depth of talent. I didn't think the Siena staff did all they could last year and Harris/Sutherland etc. aside, I still feel the same this year. I'm of the opinion that if you leave scholarships open in a given year, you've generally spent some of the year unprepared recruiting wise. I think that way of every coach, not just at Siena. I get there are tradeoffs where it makes sense to hold one once you get yourself into certain situations...but ending up in those situations in the first place is still the fault of the staff. This said, it doesn't mean that I don't like Carm or like a lot of the things he is doing. I do so far. I would just like to have seen more recruiting activity for 2019 in the late period. That other scholarship should really have been filled by now... and now there's 2 open.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 8:07:15 GMT -5
I like Carm so far. However, yes, more could probably have been done with 2019 class so far.
All I see when I look at the MAAC is numbers in my head. For Rider and Iona, even Quinny and others...I think I have a decent idea of what to expect from these teams based on what they have.
Can Siena compete with them? Of course. Is Siena guaranteed better? No.
My thing is, 'go for the jugular'. Don't put a team together that's 'yeah, top 5 or better'. If you have the chance, you put together a team that is the runaway favorite whenever possible.
Siena had Wright...now they have Pickett. These are 2 guys who each are capable of winning a championship in the MAAC. If you fail to put enough talent around PGs like that to win a championship, you've failed big time. Once you have your PG, 80% of the battle should be over. If you then fail after getting that guy for 4 straight years, you are in the wrong business. This is why Patsos is gone. You don't stop at just that 1 guy, you build up the roster until you have 8 or 9 great guys that will bring home a title.
Siena stops at 3-5 and says, ok, let's find a guy who is a nice person that will sit on the bench. No. You go get a 6th starter and a 7th...and an 8th. That's how you build a program. Kids leave. Kids get hurt. If you aren't playing to win NOW. You aren't really playing to win at all.
Carm is going for the jugular. Why do you think he's been trying to get guys like Webster and Dunn? Those are starter quality players when he's already got Pickett/Carey. He's not exactly resting on his laurels. But when you're competing late against other very good schools for good players it gets harder and harder to land them - especially when you already have good players at their position. So you have to prepare yourself for "no" more often than "yes" and sometimes take no one rather than settle when recruiting at a high level. Otherwise you find yourself with a Patsos-type bench. I love the recruitment of Dunn, yes. However, 2 scholarships are open in August. You just said yourself, 'prepare for the NO'. The staff seems to have chosen to go after 2020 for the volume and 2019 selectively. That's a choice...and it may work out for the staff..especially if Dunn commits on top of it. However, they probably should have had a few more guys on the burner so that we only had 1 ship left at this point. I get why. And I don't really blame Carm too much but still Siena remains a bit thin depth wise and that's not 'going for the jugular'. This is more tip toeing around it and going for it in 2020.
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