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Post by Tony on Oct 17, 2012 19:48:52 GMT -5
I think most unbiased observers believe Siena should be picked anywhere from 3rd thru 5 or 6th- Siena has as many question marks as any of the contenders not named Manhattan or Loyola- it’s a big jump from a mid-pack MAAC team to the top team. Having said that if Mitch plays the way he says he will I have no doubt they can do it. Given his track record easy to see why many will say show me don’t tell me. I want to see when Siena comes down the court 4 on 3.. 3 on 2… whatever and one of our shooters is open on the wing and set—I want to see him shoot the ball( something Mitch hasn’t allowed his 1st two years) in the half court when we are trying to pound the ball into OD and he is double or triple teamed … I want to see team recognize that and have a shooter ready to shoot and with green light to shoot 15 seconds into possession. All too often we have seen Siena pass the ball around the perimeter for 30 seconds trying to pound ball into Rossiter a few years ago and OD last year then see a guard take a low percentage shot that is well guarded as shot clock expires and you guys say—see they can’t shoot that isn’t Mitch fault. Basically I want to see the team score points... the last few years( and all his time at FF) if the opposing team scored more than 65 points a Mitch B coached team normally loses. We dont have to avg 90 points but no reason why we cant be scoring 70+ a game this year And 1 final thought-- its not where you are picked pre season that counts-- its where you finish that counts!!No doubt Siena has the pieces to be a very good team this year Have you seen this team's perimeter shooting percentages the last couple of years? You can't blame Mitch for reigning in outside shot attempts in favor of higher percentage shots by O.D. Now that they actually have (hopefully) reliable 3 point shooters, I think you'll see more action on the perimeter. As for scoring points, they'll start two quick guards who will average double figures in scoring and you know O.D. is gonna get his. They'll also get better production out of the 3 position, they now have an actual bench, and lastly they now have three point shooters. It's pretty much a lock they'll score more even if one were to believe Mitch is lying about running. Whoa I never said lying.. please dont put words in my post..if you want I'll dig up the quotes before the last two seasons where Mitch said he would run. Mitch's version of running and mine may be entirely different. Lets face it nowhere in Mitch's record as head coach has he ran- his teams always had problems scoring( thats a fact look it up) as for the shooting pct-- hard to shoot a good pct when you are taking a forced shot as clock expires and that happened all too often the last few years Listen I hope Siena is running.. I hope they do pound the ball into OD in the half court and if he is double or tripled team kick the ball out ( they didn't kick it out two years ago with Rossiter and last year with OD) the best way to beat the double and triple teams is to burn the team with wide open jumpers in the flow of the offense If Siena does score 70PPG or more I expect them to be very good.. excuse me if i take a wait and see approach after watching team struggle to score 65 points a game under Mitch last two years
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Post by hockeyguy on Oct 17, 2012 21:35:00 GMT -5
I think the very short bench last year was a huge factor in 65 ppg for more reasons than they couldn't run 6 guys up and down the court for 40 minutes. Last year Siena had to be about the easiest "scout" in college basketball. There was one piece that came in and out of games. Figuring out how to defend the very few combinations of players (and their skills) could not have proved particularly difficult for most opposing coaches. Figure out the starting five and how they will play, then "okay, Poole's in the game at the 3, or the 2, or "Wignot is at the 4 Poole at the 3" here is what we have to do". End of lesson. Add in the fact you can't afford to have a player foul out simply because there is no one to take his place, dictates you have to play pretty conservatively around the perimiter and not take many risks. "No risks, no rewards". When the other guy knows this, not to hard to set a defense that keeps the ball outside until the final seconds and a poor percentage shot. Last, I have to wonder what effect losing Wignot 5 minutes into the season had on his game and the teams game the rest of the year. Was he ever really 100% the player he might have been? Yes we lose 3 starters from last year each of whom hustled their butt off all year long and greatly over-acheived, but I think the "replacement parts" will make adding 8 ppg a very realistic goal. 2 pts additional every 10 minutes isn't that much is it? I like this team's chances, would like to see a little more challenging schedule, but it is what it is. As for CBSSports, if the MAAC is so deep and interesting, how did it end up being their 19th rated conference? In an average year the MAAC is somewhere 15th or 16th. Is all this talent returning and entering not what we think?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 1:27:14 GMT -5
Have you seen this team's perimeter shooting percentages the last couple of years? You can't blame Mitch for reigning in outside shot attempts in favor of higher percentage shots by O.D. Now that they actually have (hopefully) reliable 3 point shooters, I think you'll see more action on the perimeter. As for scoring points, they'll start two quick guards who will average double figures in scoring and you know O.D. is gonna get his. They'll also get better production out of the 3 position, they now have an actual bench, and lastly they now have three point shooters. It's pretty much a lock they'll score more even if one were to believe Mitch is lying about running. Whoa I never said lying.. please dont put words in my post..if you want I'll dig up the quotes before the last two seasons where Mitch said he would run. Mitch's version of running and mine may be entirely different. Lets face it nowhere in Mitch's record as head coach has he ran- his teams always had problems scoring( thats a fact look it up) as for the shooting pct-- hard to shoot a good pct when you are taking a forced shot as clock expires and that happened all too often the last few years Listen I hope Siena is running.. I hope they do pound the ball into OD in the half court and if he is double or tripled team kick the ball out ( they didn't kick it out two years ago with Rossiter and last year with OD) the best way to beat the double and triple teams is to burn the team with wide open jumpers in the flow of the offense If Siena does score 70PPG or more I expect them to be very good.. excuse me if i take a wait and see approach after watching team struggle to score 65 points a game under Mitch last two years Tony I agree with you in regards to year one as I have said before whether it was coaching, players talent/confidence, or injuries whatever that offense focused way too much on Ryan(not his fault) and last second on the clock shots. I disagree with you about last year. The ball moved through OD but he dished it off plenty they just didnt hit the open shots. This team if it performs to its hype should be able to add a 7-10 point increase in overall scoring. I also think you made an excellent point when you stated your definition of running maybe different than Mitch's. His maybe be a little more on the conservative side. ;D
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Post by SaintsFan on Oct 18, 2012 7:43:58 GMT -5
OD did seem better at sharing the ball later in the season but you aren't going to shoot well if you're given the ball often late in the shot clock. The offense has had little flow for two years. Hopefully that's addressed this year
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by frombustawithlove on Oct 18, 2012 9:40:53 GMT -5
I don't want to get in an argument again but Tony's and SF's expectation of running are gonna be a little different from Mitch's.
Mitch will run for layups. Then he'll go thru OD. Then he'll take a jumper. That's efficient basketball if it works. Jumpers aren't as high percentage shots unless you have 40% shooting guys like Iona did. Plus, you're prone to keeping other teams in games that way during shooting slumps.
Fran ran for anything. I think that's what Tony and SF want.
However, even Fran often reigned back and made the team get it inside to Alex and RyRo during crunch time.
Fran used agressive traps that allowed opposing teams to often get easy layups on us. Mitch will use that 3/4 press to death and then fall back into zone/man mix.
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SaintMisbehavin
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Post by SaintMisbehavin on Oct 18, 2012 9:54:21 GMT -5
Fran used agressive traps that teams often got easy layups one. Mitch will use that 3/4 press to death and then fall back into a zone/man mix. I hope this team gets back to using those aggressive traps. It would be a great way to utilize the front court speed, while at the same time allowing Siena's bigs to make aggressive defensive plays should that pressure be broken.
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Post by siena2003 on Oct 18, 2012 9:58:38 GMT -5
Any word on how long Poole is out ?
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Post by frombustawithlove on Oct 18, 2012 10:19:06 GMT -5
Fran used agressive traps that teams often got easy layups one. Mitch will use that 3/4 press to death and then fall back into a zone/man mix. I hope this team gets back to using those aggressive traps. It would be a great way to utilize the front court speed, while at the same time allowing Siena's bigs to make aggressive defensive plays should that pressure be broken. Siena was 16th in the nation in defending the 2pt field goal last year. That's a nicccee! Fran's teams averaged 182nd in the nation in 2 pt defense. I don't want to lose our strength. Fran did halfcourt traps. No reason for us to gamble in the halfcourt. Mitch will do traps in fullcourt and 3/4 but I hope he makes teams shoot over us in the halfcourt. Stick to that zone as the main D in the halfcourt. We have the size to get the boards and the speed to at least hinder the shooters. There's also a subset of analysts out there that wonders whether you can really effectively defend threes anyway. (Fran averaged 166th in nation vs. threes, Mitch ave. 194th.) Stick to what this team knows. Press and zone on makes. Man to man off misses. The increased speed and more pressing will make it very formidable.
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Post by Tony on Oct 18, 2012 11:35:46 GMT -5
I’m not looking to re open old wounds or anything of the sort. I just want Siena to score more. Why you might ask.? Ok I’ll answer that Mitch is not some sort of unknown he has a long history as a head man- and here are the facts—when an opponent scores 65 points or more against a Mitch B coached team—Mitch loses that contest 75% of the time… let me repeat that when an opponent scores more than 65 points Mitch loses 75% of the time.. And if you throw out his time at FF and just use his Siena time, Mitch loses 70% of the time when an opponent scores over 65 points. Yeah yeah we all can say so and so coach did that or that… the fact of the matter is Mitch teams struggle against better teams because better teams can score the ball. Unless we can get up over 70ppg Siena will not finish top 4 in conference. History and Mitch’s record tells us that. Who wants to be sitting there watching a game and know that when an opponent goes over 65 points Siena is pretty much toast
Now keep in mind I don’t expect a Hewitt or even a Fran pace… but if we can’t get up over 70ppg this team will NOT move up in the standings. And to tell you the truth no reason why this team can’t score 70 plus a night as long as Mitch loosens the reins up a bit—this isn’t 1984 when that style won a national championship
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Post by frombustawithlove on Oct 18, 2012 11:53:12 GMT -5
I’m not looking to re open old wounds or anything of the sort. I just want Siena to score more. Why you might ask.? Ok I’ll answer that Mitch is not some sort of unknown he has a long history as a head man- and here are the facts—when an opponent scores 65 points or more against a Mitch B coached team—Mitch loses that contest 75% of the time… let me repeat that when an opponent scores more than 65 points Mitch loses 75% of the time.. And if you throw out his time at FF and just use his Siena time, Mitch loses 70% of the time when an opponent scores over 65 points. Yeah yeah we all can say so and so coach did that or that… the fact of the matter is Mitch teams struggle against better teams because better teams can score the ball. Unless we can get up over 70ppg Siena will not finish top 4 in conference. History and Mitch’s record tells us that. Who wants to be sitting there watching a game and know that when an opponent goes over 65 points Siena is pretty much toast Now keep in mind I don’t expect a Hewitt or even a Fran pace… but if we can’t get up over 70ppg this team will NOT move up in the standings. And to tell you the truth no reason why this team can’t score 70 plus a night as long as Mitch loosens the reins up a bit—this isn’t 1984 when that style won a national championship 70 pts a game is a number I certainly would like to see, but I don't care as long as he wins. I mean Butler barely gets that most years and they continue to win. Only in their last championship game year did they eclipse that, I think. I honestly think even 68 a game is enough for this defense to win us a ton of games. Loyola averaged 67.6 and FF averaged 65.3 last year. Even Manhattan was at just 71.1 and they were definitely a running team. Iona was a freak of nature. I'm willing to give Mitch a pass on his past offensive numbers cause I don't know what kind of scoring talent he was able to attract to FF at that time. Or the injuries that set him back there. I do know that he certainly hasn't had the guard depth or injury luck here. The big thing that needs to be done in my mind is more dribble penetration. Loyola for example won because they drew a ton of fouls. Their overall FG% was almost exactly the same as ours and they played the slowest tempo in the league yet they still scored more than us. The midgets don't always have the luxury of getting away with getting too deep in the lane. I hope Poole, Audu, Trenity, and Oliver really pick up that part of the game. At least, they have pull up jumpers as a backup if they can't get all the way to the rim.
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Post by Sienafan on Oct 18, 2012 12:19:20 GMT -5
Have you seen this team's perimeter shooting percentages the last couple of years? You can't blame Mitch for reigning in outside shot attempts in favor of higher percentage shots by O.D. Now that they actually have (hopefully) reliable 3 point shooters, I think you'll see more action on the perimeter. As for scoring points, they'll start two quick guards who will average double figures in scoring and you know O.D. is gonna get his. They'll also get better production out of the 3 position, they now have an actual bench, and lastly they now have three point shooters. It's pretty much a lock they'll score more even if one were to believe Mitch is lying about running. Whoa I never said lying.. please dont put words in my post..if you want I'll dig up the quotes before the last two seasons where Mitch said he would run. Mitch's version of running and mine may be entirely different. Lets face it nowhere in Mitch's record as head coach has he ran- his teams always had problems scoring( thats a fact look it up) as for the shooting pct-- hard to shoot a good pct when you are taking a forced shot as clock expires and that happened all too often the last few years Listen I hope Siena is running.. I hope they do pound the ball into OD in the half court and if he is double or tripled team kick the ball out ( they didn't kick it out two years ago with Rossiter and last year with OD) the best way to beat the double and triple teams is to burn the team with wide open jumpers in the flow of the offense If Siena does score 70PPG or more I expect them to be very good.. excuse me if i take a wait and see approach after watching team struggle to score 65 points a game under Mitch last two years I never said you claimed Mitch was lying. That's why I used the term "if one were to believe..." instead of saying "if you believe...". I was speaking in the hypothetical. I'm sorry if that was unclear. I believe Mitch had every intention of running the past two seasons - and then the realities of what he had to work with set in. Now he's gone out and rebuilt the team with quick, athletic players who can shoot the three, and he plans on starting one of the fastest backcourts we'll ever see. There's no point in starting the 5'10 Brookins at the 2 if the plan is to walk the ball up the court. I understand his history, but all of Mitch's present moves point to the team speeding up the tempo this time around.
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Post by frombustawithlove on Oct 18, 2012 12:46:16 GMT -5
If OD, Wignot, and Walters had shot 70% as a group from the FT line last year, Siena would have scored 1.1 more points per game from that alone..
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Post by Tony on Oct 18, 2012 13:54:21 GMT -5
Every little bit helps… Mitch has plenty of weapons- I think the key is to spread it out a bit. Take what the defense gives him. If in the half court they defend OD one on one by all means go to him. If they double team him, kill them from the outside. Push the pace – and this helps a few ways get a few ‘easy” buckets a game plus use more players to keep players on a young roster happy. Mitch teams historically play good defense- so if he can score the ball the fun will be back in Loudonville this year
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Post by SaintMisbehavin on Oct 18, 2012 13:58:16 GMT -5
If OD, Wignot, and Walters had shot 70% as a group from the FT line last year, Siena would have scored 1.1 more points per game from that alone.. Given that Owen shot a total of 30 FT's last season I don't think he would have moved that PPG up too drastically. Over the past 2 years, Owen only shot 58 FTs...that is a CRAZY low amount given the number of minutes he played. With Fran's teams (although admittedly gave up many 2 pt. fgs as you alluded) they would MAKE more FTs than the other team ATTEMPTED. I would think that with this team, with the reintroduction of Burdine and Audu who both look to be slashers, this team will have the potential of getting to the line much more.
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Post by frombustawithlove on Oct 18, 2012 14:23:54 GMT -5
If OD, Wignot, and Walters had shot 70% as a group from the FT line last year, Siena would have scored 1.1 more points per game from that alone.. Given that Owen shot a total of 30 FT's last season I don't think he would have moved that PPG up too drastically. Over the past 2 years, Owen only shot 58 FTs...that is a CRAZY low amount given the number of minutes he played. With Fran's teams (although admittedly gave up many 2 pt. fgs as you alluded) they would MAKE more FTs than the other team ATTEMPTED. I would think that with this team, with the reintroduction of Burdine and Audu who both look to be slashers, this team will have the potential of getting to the line much more. Actually, I calculated it exactly. It was for those 3 guys all together not just Wignot. .68 pts per game if they just shot even 65%. Naturally, as I said earlier, it would be better if they also got to the line more in the first place. Saints attempted 162 FTs less than league leading Loyola did last year. That's like 5 pts per game. And that's not insignificant at all. Loyola's FG% was 42.5 Siena's was 42.4. So that's the difference between 6th place and 2nd.
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