Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 7:56:29 GMT -5
Papi is a consumer of Orange Kool Aid and batches aged over the off-season have been known to ferment distorting his view of the real world and its past - a fresh batch is always brewed when conference play begins and his "sanity" returns to levels below the apex of his beloved "only offense" three point shot.....
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glen
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Post by glen on Dec 12, 2016 8:18:16 GMT -5
i82 - you're missing the point. Jimmy's comment about not being concerned about wins and losses at this point just screams low-major OR rebuilding phase. This is a senior laden team. Not a rebuild year. Did I expect a first round win? No. That said, getting one certainly isn't a historic event. We've done it a few times. We shouldn't be settling for "just getting there" with the history of this program. I think there's several points here. I may be missing one and you may be missing mine. I will be happy just getting to the tournament first. It will have been 7 years. That is the immediate goal. Win the MAAC tournament! I82 - From a reality standpoint I agree with you. It's been 7 years since a tourney appearance so expecting a win or 2 in the dance isn't realistic. That said, my point is we shouldn't be in the spot where just getting there is the bar. It IS the reality but it just shows how far the program has dropped. We can't even beat the better AE teams. Just an FYI...I thought the Patsos hire was a decent bet. I bought into the idea that he could do more with more (compared to Loyola). It turns out he couldn't. Where I think the admins lose sight of things is that being a mid-pack MAAC team may be fine but then you can't charge the highest prices in the league for tix etc. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing the team play in a semi-pro arena but if we're not going to do anything with it then why play there?
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Dec 12, 2016 8:22:38 GMT -5
I think there's several points here. I may be missing one and you may be missing mine. I will be happy just getting to the tournament first. It will have been 7 years. That is the immediate goal. Win the MAAC tournament! I82 - From a reality standpoint I agree with you. It's been 7 years since a tourney appearance so expecting a win or 2 in the dance isn't realistic. That said, my point is we shouldn't be in the spot where just getting there is the bar. It IS the reality but it just shows how far the program has dropped. We can't even beat the better AE teams. Just an FYI...I thought the Patsos hire was a decent bet. I bought into the idea that he could do more with more (compared to Loyola). It turns out he couldn't. Where I think the admins lose sight of things is that being a mid-pack MAAC team may be fine but then you can't charge the highest prices in the league for tix etc. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing the team play in a semi-pro arena but if we're not going to do anything with it then why play there? I generally agree. And I think we can also agree that there are several different points here. Probably best termed short-term, long-term and maybe even 'hindsight'.
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 12, 2016 8:34:41 GMT -5
I hope this is a lesson learned for some people out here. You can't expect a coach who has not performed up to Siena's standards to suddenly perform just because it's Siena. All the things that I was ridiculed for saying prior to hire has happened with the exception of a national incident (yet).
One other point going forward--- it's a lot tougher to get into the nit now, and not just due to the selection changes. There are more maac teams, and more importantly more NCAA teams. With watered down product it's tougher to stand out. We needed to upgrade when given the chance. We didn't, and now we are stuck in a one bid league that for the past decade has lacked focus and common goals. Perhaps the renewed focus on scheduling will help-- it's the only sliver of hope I have that the conference will become viable again.
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Post by greenblood on Dec 12, 2016 11:14:34 GMT -5
I hope this is a lesson learned for some people out here. You can't expect a coach who has not performed up to Siena's standards to suddenly perform just because it's Siena. All the things that I was ridiculed for saying prior to hire has happened with the exception of a national incident (yet). One other point going forward--- it's a lot tougher to get into the nit now, and not just due to the selection changes. There are more maac teams, and more importantly more NCAA teams. With watered down product it's tougher to stand out. We needed to upgrade when given the chance. We didn't, and now we are stuck in a one bid league that for the past decade has lacked focus and common goals. Perhaps the renewed focus on scheduling will help-- it's the only sliver of hope I have that the conference will become viable again. You and me both Gorvy....but then again, we are the ones who focused on the Past Performance Record............
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mjs72
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Post by mjs72 on Dec 12, 2016 11:39:24 GMT -5
Gorvy, since Jimmy's record coming in was not unlike Fran's, many of us hoped, even assumed that, given Siena's facility and resources, his big personality would be a recruiting positive and he could get us back to the top of the MAAC. This year is a terrible downer so far but he did get us 20 wins in two of his first three years. Not beating U Albany, having a senior laden team seemingly without leadership and chemistry and his questionable recruiting, calls that hope into question for sure.
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glen
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Post by glen on Dec 12, 2016 12:27:42 GMT -5
20 wins is great but against what kind of competition? Have we won an "up" game since Jimmy has been here? I can't recall a marquee victory.
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gorvy
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Dec 12, 2016 12:42:58 GMT -5
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Post by gorvy on Dec 12, 2016 12:42:58 GMT -5
Gorvy, since Jimmy's record coming in was not unlike Fran's, many of us hoped, even assumed that, given Siena's facility and resources, his big personality would be a recruiting positive and he could get us back to the top of the MAAC. This year is a terrible downer so far but he did get us 20 wins in two of his first three years. Not beating U Albany, having a senior laden team seemingly without leadership and chemistry and his questionable recruiting, calls that hope into question for sure. . I get what you are saying and I wish I was wrong. I've always said that facilities don't win championships, people do (although they help). Let me give you an example. Remember Barnes, when patsos was coach at Loyola? People were killing me on here when I defended him for stealing the ball and dunking for a meaningless score (although papi demanded an investigation lol) when hasbrouck was dribbling out the clock. I don't blame the players they are what they are and will be saints for life, but These are the types of players patsos is comfortable recruiting. We can and need to do better. There are other issues, of course, but this was a tangible one that should have obvious to the admin and other Decision makers at the time of hire.
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gorvy
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Dec 12, 2016 12:44:25 GMT -5
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Post by gorvy on Dec 12, 2016 12:44:25 GMT -5
20 wins is great but against what kind of competition? Have we won an "up" game since Jimmy has been here? I can't recall a marquee victory. . Beat penn state that was fun if only because it was a big 10 program in our house.
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OneIndian
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Dec 12, 2016 12:59:40 GMT -5
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 12, 2016 12:59:40 GMT -5
Patsos is going on his 13th season in the MAAC:
Has never won the conference Has never won more than 13 games in conference Has only 1 trip to the NCAA Has only won 1 MAAC tournament Has achieved a MAAC lifetime win pct .510 Has achieved a Siena win pct of .491
I think there is enough data there to draw to draw your own conclusion as to where the program is headed......
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Post by MTS on Dec 12, 2016 13:04:23 GMT -5
It's December 12th so too early to completely give up on the season.
Maybe we can win two of the next three non-league games (against solid teams) and get so momentum for the MAAC. Maybe go 13-7 in the MAAC and enter the tournament with a 17-14 type of record. Finish 3rd or 4th - get hot at home and win the tournament. Head to the NCAA at 20-14 with #16 seed...would I be happy well considering the start sure. But considering the expectations I have for the Siena program overall I would be disappointed.
Right now this scenario is the only one that I would find acceptable. Anything else...no way.
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Post by MTS on Dec 12, 2016 13:07:07 GMT -5
Patsos is going on his 13th season in the MAAC: Has never won the conference Has never won more than 13 games in conference Has only 1 trip to the NCAA Has only won 1 MAAC tournament Has achieved a MAAC lifetime win pct .510 Has achieved a Siena win pct of .491 I think there is enough data there to draw to draw your own conclusion as to where the program is headed...... I don't hold the Loyola record against him. When he got there they were the worst program in D1. When he got them respectable they were never going to win the league with the Siena dynasty in full force. Judge him on his Siena record which isn't too stellar. Remember Fran wasn't too stellar at UNCG in the SoCon a weaker league than the MAAC.
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OneIndian
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Dec 12, 2016 13:20:40 GMT -5
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 12, 2016 13:20:40 GMT -5
Patsos is going on his 13th season in the MAAC: Has never won the conference Has never won more than 13 games in conference Has only 1 trip to the NCAA Has only won 1 MAAC tournament Has achieved a MAAC lifetime win pct .510 Has achieved a Siena win pct of .491 I think there is enough data there to draw to draw your own conclusion as to where the program is headed...... I don't hold the Loyola record against him. When he got there they were the worst program in D1. When he got them respectable they were never going to win the league with the Siena dynasty in full force. Judge him on his Siena record which isn't too stellar. Remember Fran wasn't too stellar at UNCG in the SoCon a weaker league than the MAAC. Really and you've seen a dramatic change from Loyola's performances vs Siena's under Patsos. A leopard doesn't change his spots. Hell I could make an arguement that he had performed better at Loyola than he has at Siena. Mike after 12 + years, you are what you are...... Please stop with the Fran BS. At least Fran took 2 different teams to the NCAA prior to Siena and turned out to be arguably one of the most successful Siena coaches on record. Phew, when it comes to JP you're near schizophrenic. Get off the fence and take a stand one way or the other.
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Post by MTS on Dec 12, 2016 13:30:35 GMT -5
I don't hold the Loyola record against him. When he got there they were the worst program in D1. When he got them respectable they were never going to win the league with the Siena dynasty in full force. Judge him on his Siena record which isn't too stellar. Remember Fran wasn't too stellar at UNCG in the SoCon a weaker league than the MAAC. Really and you've seen a dramatic change from Loyola's performances vs Siena's under Patsos. A leopard doesn't change his spots. Hell I could make an arguement that he had performed better at Loyola than he has at Siena. After 12 + years, you are what you are...... Please stop with the Fran BS. At least Fran took 2 different teams to the NCAA prior to Siena and turned out to be arguably one of the most successful Siena coaches on record. Phew, when it comes to JP you're near schizophrenic. Get off the fence and take a stand one way or the other. I'm just saying basically Jimmy's Loyola record isn't relevant - he simply hasn't changed/upped his game at Siena. Nobody wins big at Loyola or at UNCG. Fran's nickname was .500 Fran. The difference is Fran took advantaged of what Siena can become - Jimmy has not. But to use JP's past record at Loyola as to why he is struggling at Siena I don't buy it. I have taken a stand - I'm ready to move on.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 12, 2016 13:41:44 GMT -5
Really and you've seen a dramatic change from Loyola's performances vs Siena's under Patsos. A leopard doesn't change his spots. Hell I could make an arguement that he had performed better at Loyola than he has at Siena. After 12 + years, you are what you are...... Please stop with the Fran BS. At least Fran took 2 different teams to the NCAA prior to Siena and turned out to be arguably one of the most successful Siena coaches on record. Phew, when it comes to JP you're near schizophrenic. Get off the fence and take a stand one way or the other. I'm just saying basically Jimmy's Loyola record isn't relevant - he simply hasn't changed/upped his game at Siena. Nobody wins big at Loyola or at UNCG. Fran's nickname was .500 Fran. The difference is Fran took advantaged of what Siena can become - Jimmy has not. But to use JP's past record at Loyola as to why he is struggling at Siena I don't buy it. I have taken a stand - I'm ready to move on. I'm not holding anything against anybody just posting facts. Based on his past history in the same conference nothing has changed since joking Siena, sorry it's a factual statement backed up by factual data. He's a 500, mediocre coach. You want to through out Loyola fine, then he's a sub 500 mediocre coach.
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