glen
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Post by glen on Mar 10, 2014 13:50:19 GMT -5
I'd argue that our "great society" programs have done the exact opposite of what they intended. You want the poor to be helped...that happens locally through charity. It doesn't happen (well) through gov't programs. The advantage of local charity is that it keeps people more honest. I'm not getting that handout if my local charity sees me drinking my paycheck away (for example).
I still don't see how this is the fault of capitalism.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2014 18:52:02 GMT -5
I'd argue that our "great society" programs have done the exact opposite of what they intended. You want the poor to be helped...that happens locally through charity. It doesn't happen (well) through gov't programs. The advantage of local charity is that it keeps people more honest. I'm not getting that handout if my local charity sees me drinking my paycheck away (for example). I still don't see how this is the fault of capitalism. Where did anyone say it was the fault of capitalism? I was asking, FOR THE THIRD TIME, for the basis of your statement that CAPITALISM LIFTS PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY! Could I be any clearer? You guys throw out this rhetoric with no basis and then play dodge ball when challenged. Local charities are dependent on the LOCAL community, for the most part, and if the LOCAL COMMUNITY is depressed, the POOR in that LOCAL COMMUNITY have minimal, if any support from them and certainly will not be afforded any LIFT out of poverty by the capitalists in that locale. I am not attacking capitalism, rather I am questioning the "SOUND'S GOOD SOUND BITES" from the conservative side of the aisle that BELEIVE all are equal in terms of availability of chances to better their lives. That is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. One of the reasons so many have expanded the food stamp roles is the expiration of even extended unemployment insurance and not personal greed as some of you conservatives want to believe. |
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Mar 10, 2014 20:24:00 GMT -5
Than you leave the local community and you look for opportunity elsewhere. Just like the immigrants of the past who traveled thousands of miles for the hope of prosperity.
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Mar 10, 2014 20:31:32 GMT -5
Talk to anyone that runs a business looking for employees. There is very little out there, surprising given the unemployment rates. The system has disincentivized people and your solution is more and more programs. How old are you and you still don't get it.
The system as it is encourages behavior that is inconsistent with success and responsibility.
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 10, 2014 21:16:32 GMT -5
Talk to anyone that runs a business looking for employees. There is very little out there, surprising given the unemployment rates. The system has disincentivized people and your solution is more and more programs. How old are you and you still don't get it. The system as it is encourages behavior that is inconsistent with success and responsibility. Only thing really being created are minimum wage jobs. Pressure from conservatives to keep minimum wage as low as possible and would do away with it if they were allowed. Conservatives have effed this country as much as anyone. Everyone is part of the problem. If you take a minimum wage job it isnt enough to live on and you get no benefits. Low wage workers are in no mans land. Not enough to live off of and no benefits like health insurance. Conservatives call them lazy. |
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 10, 2014 21:17:47 GMT -5
Talk to anyone that runs a business looking for employees. There is very little out there, surprising given the unemployment rates. The system has disincentivized people and your solution is more and more programs. How old are you and you still don't get it. The system as it is encourages behavior that is inconsistent with success and responsibility. The system also incentivizes employers to erode pay and benefits in the name of profit. We are going backwards |
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 10, 2014 21:23:15 GMT -5
Exactly - the history of this country. We have 330 million people with a legit shot at making it big. Do some have an easier path? Sure. We don't have a cast system. We don't have royalty. Anyone can make it. We're not all equal however. We all have different talents and capabilities. I love hoop but I'll never dunk unless I have a ladder or a lowered hoop. It is horribly unfair that I'll never be able to play in the NBA but that's life. Along the same lines there are many who will never be a CEO. Unfair, I know. Still - anyone can have a "pet rock" or "hula hoop" kind of idea. That's why this country's combination of capitalism, freedom and democracy (and a culture/legal system based on Judeo-Christian values) is exceptional. Show me another system around the world that's been as successful. Nice spiel - where is the hug and apple pie? I was looking for the basis of the statement of yours that I quoted re "capitalism lifting people out of poverty." Focus on the lift part, as in - those already in the state of poverty get "lifted" out by our capitalistic society! I, sadly, believe our system keeps those that are down, DOWN. One could argue that as profits go up, costs go up, wages for those on the mid to low scale do not track with the cost of living so the gap widens and the definition of the poverty level goes up slightly but the income of those at or below that level does not rise to compensate. You may have a great "pet rock" idea but if you don't have even the bare bones minimum financial capability to bring that idea to market you just have a pet rock! OBTW, it's caste system. Capitalism thrives on taking advantage of third world wages/life styles. Americans love going to walmart to buy cheap.items/groceries but cant see how it has decimated middle class america. All that corporate america has figured out is how to destroy the middle man and rake in all that profit. Our communities have traded business owners for minimum wage no benefit jobs. |
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indian82
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Post by indian82 on Mar 10, 2014 21:42:01 GMT -5
Talk to anyone that runs a business looking for employees. There is very little out there, surprising given the unemployment rates. The system has disincentivized people and your solution is more and more programs. How old are you and you still don't get it. The system as it is encourages behavior that is inconsistent with success and responsibility. The system also incentivizes employers to erode pay and benefits in the name of profit. We are going backwards What 'system' are you referring to? It's a misnomer to say there is any one system that can be used as a catch-all. One of the system is stocks (corporations) that drives retirement systems, 401Ks, college funds, etc. that a good portion of the middle class take advantage of. This same system is the one that has forced companies to look overseas to cut costs. I still say we can provide more incentives to keep this labor here. Impose similar tariffs that we may be subject to, allow companies to bring their profits back into the country w/out getting killed by taxes (as long as we force them to reinvest a certain percentage), simplify the tax code (eliminate loopholes everywhere), provide incentives (tax) to encourage companies to hire more. Obamacare is wonderful in theory, but was obviously not thought through to encourage businesses (esp small) not to reduce their workforce to make up those additional payments. Any suggestions to fix that 'system' you speak of? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 4:53:22 GMT -5
Than you leave the local community and you look for opportunity elsewhere. Just like the immigrants of the past who traveled thousands of miles for the hope of prosperity. Great idea!!!!! Pack up the Connestoga, hitch up the team and head west young man. OOOOOPPPPPPPS - my age is showing. Instead, empty your savings/checking account - you'll need all $325 for your trip and resettlement expenses when you find the Promised Land (hint - look for an area with Republican Government - they don't tax/spend and there are no government regulations to stifle your anticipated meteoric rise to the middle class), go and fill your tank and drive out of NYS. Hopefully, your landlord will refund your security deposit quickly but probably not - they'll find some fine print to enable keeping it. Don't count on selling your house, if you have one, any time soon. If you decide to leave the country and have to fly, first get Capital One credit card (you should find an application in your mail a few times each week) for each member of the family. When they come in head for the airport and buy your tickets (pick a third world country, you'll need to find a job almost immediately and if you show your most recent Walmart receipt for the case of mac and cheese you'll be looked on favorably by your new slave master, oops my bad, I meant to say new employer) at the same time - remember, you will need your Passports. What, no passports? You'll need them and it will take most of that $325 to buy them and several months to get them. While you wait, go get any free medical care you need. Bon Voyage. When you get settled, drop a note to CellarRat and thank him for his advice!  |
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CellarRat
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Post by CellarRat on Mar 11, 2014 6:23:58 GMT -5
You are insane MP.
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glen
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Post by glen on Mar 11, 2014 7:00:27 GMT -5
MP - you have a legit point. I didn't provide stats. I don't have any. That said - show me a better system. You can't. Show me a country that is a greater target for immigrants than the USA?
I call BS on the minimum wage issue. What moron thinks they're entitled to raise a family (or themselves) on a min wage job? Only the liberals would argue such nonsense. Min wage is for HS kids, college kids and maybe retirees. The notion that min wage should be a "living wage" is complete shyte. Flipping burgers isn't worth $15 an hour. Sorry. Too bad you can't raise your family on it. If that was your life plan then you are an idiot.
All this talk about fairness. Whaaa whaaaaa. That sounds like equality of outcome to me. Sorry. There are winners and losers. It sucks but it happens. Trying to *fix* that is a fools errand. The problems start with the family - or the breakdown of the family unit. Show me a disadvantaged kid and my bet is he/she has a single parent. Murphy Brown - piss off.
I digress...
I'd like to see manufacturing jobs back here. You know how we can do it? Cheap energy to offset our higher wages. You know why we won't - eco-environmentalist leftist libs. We're sitting on 100 years of clean, easy to get natural gas and we're literally tilting at windmills. WTF. You can't have it all folks but don't blame capitalism for keeping the poor down. Don't blame conservatives - we haven't been in power since Reagan. Heck under Reagan the Soviet Union falls. Under O Putin is getting the old gang back together. Really people - how much more does it take to show that damn near every leftist policy is an abject failure? Oh that's right but we "have to do something" to help the poor/the earth/Africa/whatever. Heck, with all the turmoil, the State Dept. just indicated that AGW was their biggest concern. Really?!?!? Not China/Russia/Iran/NKorea? AGW? Are you kidding me? That's why we're screwed - and that isn't on conservatives.
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glen
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Post by glen on Mar 11, 2014 7:02:04 GMT -5
Oh - and show me a housing project with a solar array? How about geothermal? Nope. Why do the ecos hate poor people so much?
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 11, 2014 7:37:16 GMT -5
Im not a believer in blaming a President. But when people imply that A) Regan was so great and B) Republicans havent held the office as much as Democrats since Regan and therefor the blame falls on Dems...
1 - Republicans have held office 12 years since Regan was in office. Democrats 12.
2 - The economy went to shit under Bush.
3 - our political system is effed. Politicians have learned that cock blocking (i.e. Obstructionism) is the way of the future ... "if I cant win... well then neither can you"
as a most recent and insanely costly example. How much of tax payer money has been absolutely wasted attempting to obstruct the Affordable Care Act?
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glen
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Post by glen on Mar 11, 2014 12:14:04 GMT -5
SF - In general I agree that the political system is broken. Part of that IMO is that there is too much government. Too much money controlled by government. Corruption follows the money.
As for your ACA example...how many billions were wasted on ACA web sites that are totally FUBAR? If the ACA is so good, why does the prez need to illegally and unilaterally change the bill? Here's an idea - let's follow the process and the law and have both houses of Congress work together to fix the legislation. Don't give me this BS that there's stonewalling. That's partially true but there's also the lack of willingness to negotiate now that the D's don't have filibuster proof majorities in both houses. That's why congress-people who would normally go crazy with the prez overreaching are sitting silent. It is to their benefit - for now. Wait until a Republican president decides to unilaterally change legislation. Let's see how everyone on the other side takes that. Sorry man, the ACA stinks and the process that made it law stinks (deemed to have passed in the House - WTF?) Now you have an issue that there's opposition!?!? Really and truly put yourself in the other shoes. Be honest. If letters were reversed what would you be saying now?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 14:24:40 GMT -5
MP - you have a legit point. I didn't provide stats. I don't have any. That said - show me a better system. You can't. Show me a country that is a greater target for immigrants than the USA? I call BS on the minimum wage issue. What moron thinks they're entitled to raise a family (or themselves) on a min wage job? Only the liberals would argue such nonsense. Min wage is for HS kids, college kids and maybe retirees. The notion that min wage should be a "living wage" is complete shyte. Flipping burgers isn't worth $15 an hour. Sorry. Too bad you can't raise your family on it. If that was your life plan then you are an idiot. All this talk about fairness. Whaaa whaaaaa. That sounds like equality of outcome to me. Sorry. There are winners and losers. It sucks but it happens. Trying to *fix* that is a fools errand. The problems start with the family - or the breakdown of the family unit. Show me a disadvantaged kid and my bet is he/she has a single parent. Murphy Brown - piss off. I digress... I'd like to see manufacturing jobs back here. You know how we can do it? Cheap energy to offset our higher wages. You know why we won't - eco-environmentalist leftist libs. We're sitting on 100 years of clean, easy to get natural gas and we're literally tilting at windmills. WTF. You can't have it all folks but don't blame capitalism for keeping the poor down. Don't blame conservatives - we haven't been in power since Reagan. Heck under Reagan the Soviet Union falls. Under O Putin is getting the old gang back together. Really people - how much more does it take to show that damn near every leftist policy is an abject failure? Oh that's right but we "have to do something" to help the poor/the earth/Africa/whatever. Heck, with all the turmoil, the State Dept. just indicated that AGW was their biggest concern. Really?!?!? Not China/Russia/Iran/NKorea? AGW? Are you kidding me? That's why we're screwed - and that isn't on conservatives. Canada for one! They don't let you in without already having a job and a healthy bank account. I doubt many, if any, that are on minimum wage feel entitled to be able to raise a family on a job that only pays what the law mandates as the lowest wage. If the Government that all of you conservatives decry did not pass a minimum wage law they would be paid much less. Moving from a job at the low end of the spectrum isn't as easy as you would like us all to believe. These folks feel damn lucky to have the job. Increases to the minimum wage are few and far between and do not even approach what the cost of living or consumer price index growth has experienced. No one says it should be a living wage, those that want it increased are trying to let those in jobs at the minimum wage stay living! Your view of family and its relationship to disadvantaged kids shocks me. Do you think that all single parents opted for that state? Do you think the wife of a dead veteran with two or three kids chose to be a single parent. When some dick decides to divorce the wife and bail on his kids and then not pay what the court ordered is that a life his wife chose? How many of those kids are likely to be considered disadvantaged? As to the environment - do you have any clue how much money has been and is currently being spent to clean up previous environmental disasters which, if not cleaned up, are or will impact drinking water and real lives? I'm sure you haven't got a clue. Those monuments (that's what we in the environmental restoration field call them) were the result of an unregulated set of industries gone wild with no concern for the environment. Dirty a site and then move to another one. As to the convenient scapegoat for all things bad at present - Obama did not start Putin on his current path. Your hero George W. Bush watched as Putin did exactly the same thing in Georgia during his watch. He didn't even bother to threaten - he just watched, whistled and ignored it. Too busy fighting the Bush family war in Iraq. You mentioned the clean, easy to get natural gas - odd that you didn't include the word Safe in your characterization. The EPA and others want to emphasize the safety aspect - is that somehow only a concern of the left? Safety costs money and reduces profits - hence it's unnecessary and a bad idea from the left! Here's a real world example that you may be able to grasp. We recently have seen an influx of Canadian crude being shipped through the US to shipping and processing facilities like the Port of Albany. It would appear that the safety of the shipping vehicle was ignored for this particular type of very flammable crude. There is a huge stockpile of loaded tank cars sitting at the port of Albany awaiting transfer. I see at least two or three dedicated very long trains bringing those loaded cars through Jonesville and Clifton Park each week. There have been several very serious large scale fires attributed to the shipment of this material. The cars currently in use are all very new - wonder what condition they will be in two or three years down the road? Anyone who voiced objection to those cars being used and the routes taken would have been shouted down as leftist environmental safety freaks by conservatives whose interest lies only in getting the crude to keep their profits growing. |
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