$cott
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Post by $cott on May 30, 2019 9:37:23 GMT -5
In fairness, Pat Cole’s issue wasn’t his ability to play basketball, it was his inability to play with Marquis Wright or play for Patsos. He wound up averaging 20 per game on a tournament team. Pat Cole was a classic example of a kid that was a very good low major type player-- the level you play at makes a huge impact on your stats I think he was just a player that improved every year and would have been just fine at the MAAC level his senior year if he stuck around. Even going from MEAC-MAAC-MEAC he shows a consistent improvement in both PER (11.7- 15.0-15.9-20.1) and in Offensive Rating (83.5- 97.6-102.4-104.5). If you look at his game log he actually did very well in up games. Went for 26-6-6 at Ohio St, 17-12-7 at Missouri, 19-10-9 at LSU. He was also a turnover machine that had bad chemistry so it was ultimately a good thing for Siena that he left.
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Post by goldsaint17 on May 30, 2019 9:38:02 GMT -5
In fairness, Pat Cole’s issue wasn’t his ability to play basketball, it was his inability to play with Marquis Wright or play for Patsos. He wound up averaging 20 per game on a tournament team. Pat Cole was a classic example of a kid that was a very good low major type player-- the level you play at makes a huge impact on your stats I think if you dumped Quis from our team and have Pat Cole the ball (he was a ball-dominant guy) Cole would probably have been just as good as Quis (or at least close). Kid could play. We had 2 kids who needed the ball to be successful and 2 kids who didn’t want let the other one touch it... add in the off-court stuff and see ya later Pat. Don’t foresee having those problems with Carey, who played with another guard who dominated the ball in Junior Robinson as a freshman and still was productive.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 9:48:47 GMT -5
Partly true. However, Smithen had a very good 1.35 PPS the year before to go with his 1.64 of last year. It didn't come out of nowhere...attacking, getting fouled, and making his FTs was his game. Pickett is more of a 'prober' than a guy who draws a lot of contact. whoa whoa whoa-- you are getting carried away Smithin avg 4.8 ppg, dont care what his PPS was- it should have been sky high he wasn't guarded until he got the ball- almost all of his jump shots were wide open nobody within 10 feet of him. How bad did Jalen PPS suffer because he had to heave desperation shots up at the end of shot clock? That's where just stats alone just dont tell the whole story Pickett's PPS suffering from Smithen in that regard is a different issue. I acknowledge that issue as part of the upside between both Pickett/Carey with regard to PPS on offense. I already posted that. It doesn't change the fact that when Smithen actually attempted to score, he was the most efficient at it on the team...though at lower volume. Now, it can be argued that it was because he was open, sure, but it's still how it went down. Darwiche was in similar situation too but he still sucked. Smithen at least got it done when he looked to score and played great D. However, there's also a void to Smithen not playing defensively and with regard to possessions (steals, drawn charges, etc). Hopefully, the overall offensive gain from the Pickett/Carey combo eclipses his hyper offensive efficiency and defensive strengths to be a net positive for the team. Last year, Smithen was the best choice at SG all year. There was never a better option than him. Others could neither take the pressure off Pickett nor defend enough. He was the best combination of skills to play that position. Had Carey been on the team, Smithen still should have played in the rotation as more of a backup at all 3 guard positions. The guy's +/- speaks for itself.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on May 30, 2019 9:59:25 GMT -5
whoa whoa whoa-- you are getting carried away Smithin avg 4.8 ppg, dont care what his PPS was- it should have been sky high he wasn't guarded until he got the ball- almost all of his jump shots were wide open nobody within 10 feet of him. How bad did Jalen PPS suffer because he had to heave desperation shots up at the end of shot clock? That's where just stats alone just dont tell the whole story Pickett's PPS suffering from Smithen in that regard is a different issue. I acknowledge that issue as part of the upside between both Pickett/Carey with regard to PPS on offense. I already posted that. It doesn't change the fact that when Smithen actually attempted to score, he was the most efficient at it on the team...though at lower volume. Now, it can be argued that it was because he was open, sure, but it's still how it went down. Darwiche was in similar situation too but he still sucked. Smithen at least got it done when he looked to score and played great D. However, there's also a void to Smithen not playing defensively and with regard to possessions (steals, drawn charges, etc). Hopefully, the overall offensive gain from the Pickett/Carey combo eclipses his hyper offensive efficiency and defensive strengths to be a net positive for the team. Last year, Smithen was the best choice at SG all year. There was never a better option than him. Others could neither take the pressure off Pickett nor defend enough. He was the best combination of skills to play that position. Had Carey have been on the team, Smithen still should have played in the rotation as more of a backup at all 3 guard positions. The guy's +/- speaks for itself. I think the biggest thing we will miss with Smithen is his toughness. Regardless of what you thought of Patsos recruiting he brought in tough kids. Last year if someone knocked Pickett on his ass you could bet that Fisher and Smithen would be there to get in the guys face. Now Camper is the only guy I know has that toughness. JC was pretty clear in recruiting pure basketball players, even said in an interview he would have never recruited Camper cause he played football in addition to basketball and he only recruits year round basketball guys. I hope Carm can find the right mix of tough athletes and pure basketball guys to make for a championship team.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 10:07:26 GMT -5
Pickett's PPS suffering from Smithen in that regard is a different issue. I acknowledge that issue as part of the upside between both Pickett/Carey with regard to PPS on offense. I already posted that. It doesn't change the fact that when Smithen actually attempted to score, he was the most efficient at it on the team...though at lower volume. Now, it can be argued that it was because he was open, sure, but it's still how it went down. Darwiche was in similar situation too but he still sucked. Smithen at least got it done when he looked to score and played great D. However, there's also a void to Smithen not playing defensively and with regard to possessions (steals, drawn charges, etc). Hopefully, the overall offensive gain from the Pickett/Carey combo eclipses his hyper offensive efficiency and defensive strengths to be a net positive for the team. Last year, Smithen was the best choice at SG all year. There was never a better option than him. Others could neither take the pressure off Pickett nor defend enough. He was the best combination of skills to play that position. Had Carey have been on the team, Smithen still should have played in the rotation as more of a backup at all 3 guard positions. The guy's +/- speaks for itself. I think the biggest thing we will miss with Smithen is his toughness. Regardless of what you thought of Patsos recruiting he brought in tough kids. Last year if someone knocked Pickett on his ass you could bet that Fisher and Smithen would be there to get in the guys face. Now Camper is the only guy I know has that toughness. JC was pretty clear in recruiting pure basketball players, even said in an interview he would have never recruited Camper cause he played football in addition to basketball and he only recruits year round basketball guys. I hope Carm can find the right mix of tough athletes and pure basketball guys to make for a championship team. There are certain players who can completely change the flow of the game with their D. Smithen was one of those players. It's not easy to quantify that as even some other players defensive stats might really be a partial result of his defensive abilities. And he was probably drawing a charge or 2 per game down the stretch...that's 1-2 possessions created simply by him hustling, but not statistically given to him. I'd like Harris to be that guy. Smithen was a defensive demon last year. I'm not sure you can replace that with a frosh. However, with Carey, we don't need quite as much of a defensive demon but another big wing who will force TOs and block shots in coordination with Pickett, Carey, and Camper's contributions could make a world of difference. Perhaps a guy like Harris could give us that last defensive bump.
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Post by hockeyguy on May 30, 2019 11:24:56 GMT -5
Isn't Sutherland being touted as a shot blocking demon? A different aspect of defense (and yes I know big difference between HS and D1) but that could be an improved defensive piece that was pretty weak last year. Blocking a shot is pretty much the same as taking a shot on offense, each worth about a point with a 50% shooter involved.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 11:47:04 GMT -5
Isn't Sutherland being touted as a shot blocking demon? A different aspect of defense (and yes I know big difference between HS and D1) but that could be an improved defensive piece that was pretty weak last year. Sutherland might end up as our best interior shotblocker (aside from Pickett) but that doesn't mean he's a 'demon'. But, yes, this is a potential upside. The other big upside is improving the near scandalously horrible mins 600-700 mins that Ratliff, Darwiche, Bayer, Heurter, Tchougang, etc.. provided us last year. That HAS to improve. Hopefully, Friday, Ratliff, Sutherland etc can improve upon that..cause those minutes were largely atrocious on both sides of the ball. I'm honestly not even 100% convinced of Hein's D being that super great either so I feel like he'll end up just lost in the shuffle if we sign 2 more guys...at least I hope. Bench minutes are a problem. We need Sutherland and Ratliff to step up and be solid.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on May 30, 2019 12:16:10 GMT -5
Isn't Sutherland being touted as a shot blocking demon? A different aspect of defense (and yes I know big difference between HS and D1) but that could be an improved defensive piece that was pretty weak last year. Blocking a shot is pretty much the same as taking a shot on offense, each worth about a point with a 50% shooter involved. Only if your team also gets the rebound after the block shot. A block shot where you swat it into the stands and the other team maintains possession is one of the most overhyped overrated plays in all of basketball. If you were able to swat it that hard you clearly could have just grabbed the ball instead.
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Post by goldsaint17 on May 30, 2019 12:21:53 GMT -5
Isn't Sutherland being touted as a shot blocking demon? A different aspect of defense (and yes I know big difference between HS and D1) but that could be an improved defensive piece that was pretty weak last year. Sutherland might end up as our best interior shotblocker (aside from Pickett) but that doesn't mean he's a 'demon'. But, yes, this is a potential upside. The other big upside is improving the near scandalously horrible mins 600-700 mins that Ratliff, Darwiche, Bayer, Heurter, Tchougang, etc.. provided us last year. That HAS to improve. Hopefully, Friday, Ratliff, Sutherland etc can improve upon that..cause those minutes were largely atrocious on both sides of the ball. I'm honestly not even 100% convinced of Hein's D being that super great either so I feel like he'll end up just lost in the shuffle if we sign 2 more guys...at least I hope. Bench minutes are a problem. We need Sutherland and Ratliff to step up and be solid. [ The way I view Hein is as an insurance policy. I doubt he’ll be “scandalously horrible”... I think he’ll probably take care of the ball, hit a couple 3’s, and be an at least league average defender. Ideally, you bring in a guy like Brian Moore and he winds up good enough that you only need Hein for 5 minutes a game. But if Moore stinks, you have a guy who won’t actively hurt you on the floor waiting in the wings in Hein. I probably view Ratliff the same way. You know he’s not going to kill you defensively and can hit 3’s, but he isn’t ever going to be a high-end rotation player. Ideally you bring in a guy like Gary Harris and he winds up good enough that you only need Ratliff for 5 minutes per game. But if you can’t get a guy to fill that role (6-6 athletes are harder to find in June than 6-1 combos) you have a guy who won’t hurt you on the floor in Ratliff.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 12:36:45 GMT -5
Sutherland might end up as our best interior shotblocker (aside from Pickett) but that doesn't mean he's a 'demon'. But, yes, this is a potential upside. The other big upside is improving the near scandalously horrible mins 600-700 mins that Ratliff, Darwiche, Bayer, Heurter, Tchougang, etc.. provided us last year. That HAS to improve. Hopefully, Friday, Ratliff, Sutherland etc can improve upon that..cause those minutes were largely atrocious on both sides of the ball. I'm honestly not even 100% convinced of Hein's D being that super great either so I feel like he'll end up just lost in the shuffle if we sign 2 more guys...at least I hope. Bench minutes are a problem. We need Sutherland and Ratliff to step up and be solid. [ The way I view Hein is as an insurance policy. I doubt he’ll be “scandalously horrible”... I think he’ll probably take care of the ball, hit a couple 3’s, and be an at least league average defender. Ideally, you bring in a guy like Brian Moore and he winds up good enough that you only need Hein for 5 minutes a game. But if Moore stinks, you have a guy who won’t actively hurt you on the floor waiting in the wings in Hein. I probably view Ratliff the same way. You know he’s not going to kill you defensively and can hit 3’s, but he isn’t ever going to be a high-end rotation player. Ideally you bring in a guy like Gary Harris and he winds up good enough that you only need Ratliff for 5 minutes per game. But if you can’t get a guy to fill that role (6-6 athletes are harder to find in June than 6-1 combos) you have a guy who won’t hurt you on the floor in Ratliff. I think the 'won't hurt you' part is vague, misleading, and relative. Hein is less of a gunner than White (thank $#%& god). He only took 38 shots in 274 mins last year. Mo White would have taken 2.5x as many in that amount of mins. But the kid doesn't really rebound, has a career negative assist ratio, and a sub 30% career FG % over 1,000 mins. The MVC isn't exactly the NBA finals. It's not like you can really claim he'd be some great scorer at a different level. His career DRtg is just 105.4 which is really just mediocre. This team needs real bench contributors...especially with Seymour being so 1 dimensional already. "Won't hurt you" here sounds to me more like "won't help you".
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Post by goldsaint17 on May 30, 2019 12:57:01 GMT -5
[ The way I view Hein is as an insurance policy. I doubt he’ll be “scandalously horrible”... I think he’ll probably take care of the ball, hit a couple 3’s, and be an at least league average defender. Ideally, you bring in a guy like Brian Moore and he winds up good enough that you only need Hein for 5 minutes a game. But if Moore stinks, you have a guy who won’t actively hurt you on the floor waiting in the wings in Hein. I probably view Ratliff the same way. You know he’s not going to kill you defensively and can hit 3’s, but he isn’t ever going to be a high-end rotation player. Ideally you bring in a guy like Gary Harris and he winds up good enough that you only need Ratliff for 5 minutes per game. But if you can’t get a guy to fill that role (6-6 athletes are harder to find in June than 6-1 combos) you have a guy who won’t hurt you on the floor in Ratliff. I think the 'won't hurt you' part is vague, misleading, and relative. Hein is less of a gunner than White (thank $#%& god). He only took 38 shots in 274 mins last year. Mo White would have taken 2.5x as many in that amount of mins. But the kid doesn't really rebound, has a career negative assist ratio, and a sub 30% career FG % over 1,000 mins. The MVC isn't exactly the NBA finals. It's not like you can really claim he'd be some great scorer at a different level. His career DRtg is just 105.4 which is really just mediocre. This team needs real bench contributors...especially with Seymour being so 1 dimensional already. "Won't hurt you" here sounds to me more like "won't help you". I guess my point with that terminology would be— ideally you have bench guys who come in and provide something different or clearly useful (3-point shooting, defensive specialist, etc). I don’t know that Hein has one skill that will clearly pop or change a game, but I think he can be on the floor for 5 minutes at a time and not actively change the game negatively (like Georges would). So the idea is basically: ideally you’d be able to take out Carey or Pickett and bring in some scoring pop in Moore. But before adding Hein (a senior and good locker room guy), there was Georges, and that was it. Hein as the 4th guard who can be a net neutral if we lose a guard for whatever reason makes sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 13:07:02 GMT -5
I think the 'won't hurt you' part is vague, misleading, and relative. Hein is less of a gunner than White (thank $#%& god). He only took 38 shots in 274 mins last year. Mo White would have taken 2.5x as many in that amount of mins. But the kid doesn't really rebound, has a career negative assist ratio, and a sub 30% career FG % over 1,000 mins. The MVC isn't exactly the NBA finals. It's not like you can really claim he'd be some great scorer at a different level. His career DRtg is just 105.4 which is really just mediocre. This team needs real bench contributors...especially with Seymour being so 1 dimensional already. "Won't hurt you" here sounds to me more like "won't help you". I guess my point with that terminology would be— ideally you have bench guys who come in and provide something different or clearly useful (3-point shooting, defensive specialist, etc). I don’t know that Hein has one skill that will clearly pop or change a game, but I think he can be on the floor for 5 minutes at a time and not actively change the game negatively (like Georges would). So the idea is basically: ideally you’d be able to take out Carey or Pickett and bring in some scoring pop in Moore. But before adding Hein (a senior and good locker room guy), there was Georges, and that was it. Hein as the 4th guard who can be a net neutral if we lose a guard for whatever reason makes sense to me. The fact that he takes less shots than even Smithen is his biggest positive I guess. He'll just kind of exist out there and hopefully get a stop. Maybe we'll get lucky and Pickett and Carey will create him a few easy lay ins.
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$cott
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Post by $cott on May 30, 2019 13:11:36 GMT -5
I guess my point with that terminology would be— ideally you have bench guys who come in and provide something different or clearly useful (3-point shooting, defensive specialist, etc). I don’t know that Hein has one skill that will clearly pop or change a game, but I think he can be on the floor for 5 minutes at a time and not actively change the game negatively (like Georges would). So the idea is basically: ideally you’d be able to take out Carey or Pickett and bring in some scoring pop in Moore. But before adding Hein (a senior and good locker room guy), there was Georges, and that was it. Hein as the 4th guard who can be a net neutral if we lose a guard for whatever reason makes sense to me. The fact that he takes less shots than even Smithen is his biggest positive I guess. He'll just kind of exist out there and hopefully get a stop. Maybe we'll get lucky and Pickett and Carey will create him a few easy lay ins. Do they have any stats out there on taking a charge? The fact that Hein was playing so many minutes for a good team in the MVC without any standout statistics would certainly suggest he's the guy out there doing all the little things that don't show up in the stat sheets like taking charges.
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mike60
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Post by mike60 on May 30, 2019 13:19:09 GMT -5
What about the other big man we recruited? There isn't a lot of talk about him.He sort of reminded me of Steve McCoy who couldn't jump but was a good rebounder. He was what we called a good position player. Would get good position and had a nose for where the ball was going.
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mjs72
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Post by mjs72 on May 30, 2019 13:20:47 GMT -5
I also think we might be really underestimating what Isiah Burns can do for us at the 4
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