Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Dec 2, 2018 20:49:23 GMT -5
Huh? He’s still coach at Iowa after 9 years, has four 20 win seasons, 7 post season appearances including 3 ncaa wins and nationally ranked this year. Fran 67-75 in Big Ten. Tied for 3rd twice, includes a 10th and last year 11thand a bunch of 5-7th finishes. Ask Iowa fans if they think Fran has been successful. "3 NCAA wins" (including one in the "Last Four")in 9 years doesnt cut it. Thats what Dr Tom used to get in one year. Thats Frans case, Now tell us about Deane and Hewitt. Paul Hewitt lasted at GT 11 seasons after Siena. He had four 20 win seasons, was nationally ranked in four different seasons and was a national title runner up having played in a national title game. If that's failure, I'd love to have a failing program like that. Keep in mind that GT is not an easy school to win at due to heightened admissions requirements. He followed that up with two 20 win seasons out of his 4 at George Mason, but it did go downhill from there. Mike Deane was at Marquette 5 seasons and won 20 or more in 4 of them. He was nationally ranked 3 different seasons and was in the NCAA tournament twice. It bears mentioning that Marquette was not quite yet the power it is today since it left C-USA. He did nothing of note after that at Lamar and Wagner. So all these guys did quite well right after Siena. I'm not sure how you define success. Not everyone can be Mike Krzyzewski, but none of them flopped at their next stop after Siena. |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 2, 2018 20:51:43 GMT -5
Once you get above the MAAC- they all work hard or they wouldn’t be at top level of college basketball – so no advantage. Every single successful coach not only at Siena but in the MAAC all worked hard particularly at recruiting. The harder they worked the more “lucky” they got The 3 Siena kids I mentioned, and are program changers didnt come to Siena because of hard work. They were leftovers that the other D-1s didnt want. That was their fault, they couldnt evaluate talent. That includes all the successful "hard working" programs at the top of their leagues at the mid-major level that passed on those 3. |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 2, 2018 20:53:02 GMT -5
Fran 67-75 in Big Ten. Tied for 3rd twice, includes a 10th and last year 11thand a bunch of 5-7th finishes. Ask Iowa fans if they think Fran has been successful. "3 NCAA wins" (including one in the "Last Four")in 9 years doesnt cut it. Thats what Dr Tom used to get in one year. Thats Frans case, Now tell us about Deane and Hewitt. oh you talking about the 80s. I see his record in the first 8 years was under .500 in the big 10 too with no higher than 3rd finishes if you discount the first year when he won with the previous coaches players. Look, I never said that he was the best coach at Iowa ever just that he was at least as successful there as he was here. His record is similar with a harder schedule and quality post season appearances, top 25 rankings (which he never did here at Siena). Now go show me who was fired here and proved that they were just unlucky here by moving on to top 25 rankings at their next program. So no Deane or Hewitt defenses? Thought so  |
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Dec 2, 2018 20:54:46 GMT -5
Here’s the funny thing with luck, usually the harder you work the luckier you tend to be!
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Post by Tony on Dec 2, 2018 20:57:01 GMT -5
Once you get above the MAAC- they all work hard or they wouldn’t be at top level of college basketball – so no advantage. Every single successful coach not only at Siena but in the MAAC all worked hard particularly at recruiting. The harder they worked the more “lucky” they got The 3 Siena kids I mentioned, and are program changers didnt come to Siena because of hard work. They were leftovers that the other D-1s didnt want. That was their fault, they couldnt evaluate talent. That includes all the successful "hard working" programs at the top of their leagues at the mid-major level that passed on those 3. Sorry HJ you dont have a clue what you are talking about-- If you did you would know Tim Capstraw or Deane were at every single one of Marc Browns high school games his senior year-- nice try thou. I wont get into Work that was put in Ubiles, Alex Franklin Moore, Clarence jackson etc-- sorry swing and a miss on your part |
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gorvy
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Post by gorvy on Dec 2, 2018 21:03:10 GMT -5
oh you talking about the 80s. I see his record in the first 8 years was under .500 in the big 10 too with no higher than 3rd finishes if you discount the first year when he won with the previous coaches players. Look, I never said that he was the best coach at Iowa ever just that he was at least as successful there as he was here. His record is similar with a harder schedule and quality post season appearances, top 25 rankings (which he never did here at Siena). Now go show me who was fired here and proved that they were just unlucky here by moving on to top 25 rankings at their next program. So no Deane or Hewitt defenses? Thought so I was getting to that but no need to copy Siena fans work. I will add that Deane is recognized as recruiting Dwayne wade and is one of a select group of coaches to take three programs to the ncaa tournament (Lamar Siena, Marquette). Oh another fun Fran fact he is one of only 11 coaches to take FOUR different programs to the tourney wow that man is VERY LUCKY. Still waiting on your list of unlucky coaches at Siena who turned their fortune around after they left Siena. |
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Post by Tony on Dec 2, 2018 21:04:20 GMT -5
Lazy recruiters make mistakes, seldom work on a kid, seldom land their primary targets and then complain about how unlucky they are and other coaches are so lucky. Since they seldom land primary targets they seldom recruit any kids out of high school or prep that go on to ALL MAAC careers- some coaches are so unlucky in 13 or 14 years in MAAC they only recruits three ALL MAAC players out of high school or prep
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 2, 2018 21:14:14 GMT -5
Fran 67-75 in Big Ten. Tied for 3rd twice, includes a 10th and last year 11thand a bunch of 5-7th finishes. Ask Iowa fans if they think Fran has been successful. "3 NCAA wins" (including one in the "Last Four")in 9 years doesnt cut it. Thats what Dr Tom used to get in one year. Thats Frans case, Now tell us about Deane and Hewitt. Paul Hewitt lasted at GT 11 seasons after Siena. He had four 20 win seasons, was nationally ranked in four different seasons and was a national title runner up having played in a national title game. If that's failure, I'd love to have a failing program like that. Keep in mind that GT is not an easy school to win at due to heightened admissions requirements. He followed that up with two 20 win seasons out of his 4 at George Mason, but it did go downhill from there. Mike Deane was at Marquette 5 seasons and won 20 or more in 4 of them. He was nationally ranked 3 different seasons and was in the NCAA tournament twice. It bears mentioning that Marquette was not quite yet the power it is today since it left C-USA. He did nothing of note after that at Lamar and Wagner. So all these guys did quite well right after Siena. I'm not sure how you define success. Not everyone can be Mike Krzyzewski, but none of them flopped at their next stop after Siena. Bobby Cremins somehow won regularly at GT despite the academic requirements. 10 NCAA appearances in 19 years....Think his buyout was $8 million...ouch. Deane won early at Marquette...with all of Kevin O'Neills kids. Once the school saw Mikes recruiting cycle, he was shown the door after year 5. His other 2 programs we wont even talk about. This all goes back to what makes recruiting successful. Its like poker. Sure there's some skill, but there's a lot of luck too. I'll leave it at that. |
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Dec 2, 2018 21:37:37 GMT -5
Paul Hewitt lasted at GT 11 seasons after Siena. He had four 20 win seasons, was nationally ranked in four different seasons and was a national title runner up having played in a national title game. If that's failure, I'd love to have a failing program like that. Keep in mind that GT is not an easy school to win at due to heightened admissions requirements. He followed that up with two 20 win seasons out of his 4 at George Mason, but it did go downhill from there. Mike Deane was at Marquette 5 seasons and won 20 or more in 4 of them. He was nationally ranked 3 different seasons and was in the NCAA tournament twice. It bears mentioning that Marquette was not quite yet the power it is today since it left C-USA. He did nothing of note after that at Lamar and Wagner. So all these guys did quite well right after Siena. I'm not sure how you define success. Not everyone can be Mike Krzyzewski, but none of them flopped at their next stop after Siena. Bobby Cremins somehow won regularly at GT despite the academic requirements. 10 NCAA appearances in 19 years....Think his buyout was $8 million...ouch. Deane won early at Marquette...with all of Kevin O'Neills kids. Once the school saw Mikes recruiting cycle, he was shown the door after year 5. His other 2 programs we wont even talk about. This all goes back to what makes recruiting successful. Its like poker. Sure there's some skill, but there's a lot of luck too. I'll leave it at that. Bobby Cremmins was the exception that proved the rule. Who else came close to what he was able to do there? His predecessor Dwayne Morrison did dick, and so did Hewitt's successor Brian Gregory and so far Josh Pastner too. Hewitt is the second most successful coach GT has ever had in their 100 seasons of hoops. Deane did not rely just on O'Neill's players. He recruited future NBA players Chris Crawford and Amal McCaskill. He also recruited Dwayne Wade to Marquette, though Deane departed before Wade ever played for him. |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 2, 2018 21:38:59 GMT -5
The 3 Siena kids I mentioned, and are program changers didnt come to Siena because of hard work. They were leftovers that the other D-1s didnt want. That was their fault, they couldnt evaluate talent. That includes all the successful "hard working" programs at the top of their leagues at the mid-major level that passed on those 3. Sorry HJ you dont have a clue what you are talking about-- If you did you would know Tim Capstraw or Deane were at every single one of Marc Browns high school games his senior year-- nice try thou. I wont get into Work that was put in Ubiles, Alex Franklin Moore, Clarence jackson etc-- sorry swing and a miss on your part Sort of you calling a 33% shooter "elite." I wish Fran would put that kind of hard work in at Iowa. They havent been relevant for years. Maybe year 10 will be his year? |
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Dec 2, 2018 21:40:12 GMT -5
Bobby Cremins somehow won regularly at GT despite the academic requirements. 10 NCAA appearances in 19 years....Think his buyout was $8 million...ouch. Deane won early at Marquette...with all of Kevin O'Neills kids. Once the school saw Mikes recruiting cycle, he was shown the door after year 5. His other 2 programs we wont even talk about. This all goes back to what makes recruiting successful. Its like poker. Sure there's some skill, but there's a lot of luck too. I'll leave it at that. Bobby Cremmins was the exception that proved the rule. Who else came close to what he was able to do there? His predecessor Dwayne Morrison did dick, and so did Hewitt's successor Brian Gregory and so far Josh Pastner too. Hewitt is the second most successful coach GT has ever had in their 100 seasons of hoops. Deane did not rely just on O'Neill's players. He recruited future NBA players Chris Crawford and Amal McCaskill. He also recruited Dwayne Wade to Marquette, though Deane departed before Wade ever played for him. Deane was fired in '99. Better check when Wade enrolled at Marquette. BTW, BOTH McCaskill and Crawford were recruited, and played for O'Neill, not Deane. Deane was their coach on draft night.....that much is true |
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mike60
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Post by mike60 on Dec 2, 2018 22:11:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure Iowa was ever what you would call consistently relevant in basketball before Fran. Fran had a few good years and then had a very sick son. I tend to think that that had an affect on his performance.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Dec 2, 2018 22:18:45 GMT -5
Bobby Cremmins was the exception that proved the rule. Who else came close to what he was able to do there? His predecessor Dwayne Morrison did dick, and so did Hewitt's successor Brian Gregory and so far Josh Pastner too. Hewitt is the second most successful coach GT has ever had in their 100 seasons of hoops. Deane did not rely just on O'Neill's players. He recruited future NBA players Chris Crawford and Amal McCaskill. He also recruited Dwayne Wade to Marquette, though Deane departed before Wade ever played for him. Deane was fired in '99. Better check when Wade enrolled at Marquette. BTW, BOTH McCaskill and Crawford were recruited, and played for O'Neill, not Deane. Deane was their coach on draft night.....that much is true I stand corrected. Hard to keep track of who was where when. Wade was a Tom Crean recruit after Deane's departure, and the other two were in fact O'Neill recruits though they played mostly for Deane I think. Still, Deane did well there - a bad coach will still lose with good players as Lanier taught us. Even if it wasn't all his players, you can't say Deane didn't do well at Marquette. So my original argument still stands. |
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IndianSaint
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Post by IndianSaint on Dec 2, 2018 22:29:24 GMT -5
There's definitely luck in recruiting, trust me. If there wasnt, Deane, Hewitt and Fran would be successful wherever they went according to you guys. While all 3 guys were very successful here, they weren't after they left, or in some cases, before. Hard work always increases the odds, but program-changing kids like Hasbrouck, Pickett and Marc Brown, just fall in your lap sometimes. Leftovers, overlooked kids, whatever, it happens. I still dont think we've beaten anyone special for any recruit we've signed in either class so far. The coaching staff may have beat out some way better schools to land Burns. He could have went just about anywhere. Wasn’t GW after him? Maybe he wanted to come to Siena anyway but I’m assuming maybe incorrectly that he might not have come back to Siena if it weren’t for JC & staff. |
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Dec 2, 2018 23:40:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure Iowa was ever what you would call consistently relevant in basketball before Fran. Fran had a few good years and then had a very sick son. I tend to think that that had an affect on his performance. Iowa was very good under Tom Davis before they decided the sweet sixteen wasn’t good enough for them. |
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