Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 11:20:47 GMT -5
One of the best coaching jobs I've ever seen was Fran's 1st year when he picked up the pieces and patched together a winning season with very little left from the Lanier Error. (John Graney: "I don't see how these guys will win a game this year.") It can be done, but the right coaching/leadership is needed. Funny, same thing was said about the first year under JP. We heard a lot about that saints team returning only D2 talent and the freshman were Patriot level players. They were picked 10th and many on this board felt they would struggle to win 5 games. Went on to be the 5 seed and win 20 (including post season). Fran excelled Jimmy regressed. End of story. |
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Jan 16, 2018 11:42:53 GMT -5
Funny, same thing was said about the first year under JP. We heard a lot about that saints team returning only D2 talent and the freshman were Patriot level players. They were picked 10th and many on this board felt they would struggle to win 5 games. Went on to be the 5 seed and win 20 (including post season). Fran excelled Jimmy regressed. End of story. Was not making an argument for keeping him. While I am still on the fence about it, I have no problem with anyone arguing that the Saints should move on. (I prefer to look at the entire season and see where the Saints stand in March once the season ends, but that's just me.) I do have an issue with revisionist history that fails to recognize that everything is not black and white. That there can be good with the bad and not everything he has done has been a failure. It's the same thing I say about Lanier. Both JP and Lanier saw ups and downs in their respective tenures. Guys like Beyer and MB saw mostly if not all downs. There is a difference. (One exception would be MB2, where the team exceeded expectations given injuries and a short bench. While they still ended up below .500, it was a fun season to follow given the efforts of the 7 guys who played the vast majority of the minutes.) |
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Papi
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Post by Papi on Jan 16, 2018 11:52:33 GMT -5
Fran was a miracle run. Great times, like hitting Powerball,all the stars aligned. Ended up putting millions in Fran's pockets and leaving many here thinking that was the new normal. Lol.
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Jan 16, 2018 12:43:17 GMT -5
I'm glad donations are doing very well...no excuses not to write the check and move on. And who's to say some of the bigger donors aren't informing Siena they're walking away unless changes are made. Papi thinks this is good for his keep Patsos rant but I think it's just the opposite. Umm, this money isn't just coming in to bail out the coaching hires and fires. you are aware there are other sports at Siena that benefit and maybe only exist because of these donations? and they are earmarked for those sports? |
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Jan 16, 2018 12:47:47 GMT -5
. Let’s see how many of these donations come in now that they are not deductible. Ask these fine folks, they are the advisers and in many cases big donors: www.sienasaints.com/boosters/saints-alive-advisory-council.htmlBTW, though men's basketball is the 800 pound gorilla at Siena, it is not the only sport that garners donations from alumni and supporters. exactly... all that cash just isn't raised to fund the basketball program... or bail out their ineptitude in hiring coaches. Hell, I'd venture to say when Geno was around, the golf team got as much as any team at Siena!! |
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Jan 16, 2018 12:52:20 GMT -5
Any other sports make money?! Siena is a unique bird at this level.. I think if you did a poll of ALL Sports throughout the MAAC, very few teams turn any sort of profit. College athletics at this level is not a "for profit" business like the big boys are... Siena is unique in the money and interest they are able to pull from the area. I don't think anyone is saying or expecting women's hoop, the soccer teams, softball team to make money, but they are all part of the saints family and get support from these donors... |
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Jan 16, 2018 13:05:07 GMT -5
One of the best coaching jobs I've ever seen was Fran's 1st year when he picked up the pieces and patched together a winning season with very little left from the Lanier Error. (John Graney: "I don't see how these guys will win a game this year.") It can be done, but the right coaching/leadership is needed. Funny, same thing was said about the first year under JP. We heard a lot about that saints team returning only D2 talent and the freshman were Patriot level players. They were picked 10th and many on this board felt they would struggle to win 5 games. Went on to be the 5 seed and win 20 (including post season). LOL, Stop with the 20 game BS in year 1 it took 38 games to get there (basically 500 ball), not quite the same benchmark. Funny as Mitch’s kids graduated the program got progressively worse. |
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Post by greengold4ever on Jan 16, 2018 13:25:27 GMT -5
Funny, same thing was said about the first year under JP. We heard a lot about that saints team returning only D2 talent and the freshman were Patriot level players. They were picked 10th and many on this board felt they would struggle to win 5 games. Went on to be the 5 seed and win 20 (including post season). LOL, Stop with the 20 game BS in year 1 it took 38 games to get there (basically 500 ball), not quite the same benchmark. Funny as Mitch’s kids graduated the program got progressively worse. CBI was fun & great at the time, because program was getting out of the Mitch doldrums...........but lest we all FORGET, that team was 15-17 entering into that event........going 5-1 to earn the trophy and finish at 20-18...........what is likely more telling is that in yr 2, rather than garner all the momentum from that CBI run, the team went 11-20, clear trouble sign as that squad should have challenged the top of the league (but instead finished 8th)..............year 3, he gets to 21 wins (finishes 3rd) and another CBI invite, another home game but team flames out in first round vs Morehead St, awful..........then last yr, with 4 (1000pt scorers) senior talent laden squad plus Nico, disappoints with a 17-17 overall record (finishes tied for 3rd), gets to final only to lose in OT to Iona (too little too late).............and now yr 5, team is currently in dead last in the league...............expectations based on where he has this program overall is not cutting it.......probably the only reason he is kept is financial reasons, which is just a terrible way to run any business because things can get worse................... |
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hoopdad
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Post by hoopdad on Jan 16, 2018 13:27:43 GMT -5
Any other sports make money?! Siena is a unique bird at this level.. I think if you did a poll of ALL Sports throughout the MAAC, very few teams turn any sort of profit. College athletics at this level is not a "for profit" business like the big boys are... Siena is unique in the money and interest they are able to pull from the area. I don't think anyone is saying or expecting women's hoop, the soccer teams, softball team to make money, but they are all part of the saints family and get support from these donors... That is exactly my point Siena95. While the other sports teams are not profit generating, they do get some money from donors for the Saints Alive! program. |
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bison137
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Post by bison137 on Jan 16, 2018 13:28:45 GMT -5
Any other sports make money?! Siena is a unique bird at this level.. I think if you did a poll of ALL Sports throughout the MAAC, very few teams turn any sort of profit. College athletics at this level is not a "for profit" business like the big boys are... Siena is unique in the money and interest they are able to pull from the area. I don't think anyone is saying or expecting women's hoop, the soccer teams, softball team to make money, but they are all part of the saints family and get support from these donors... No MAAC sports - including basketball - turn a profit at any school. That includes Siena. Data is provided by the school. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 13:30:06 GMT -5
Fran was a miracle run. Great times, like hitting Powerball,all the stars aligned. Ended up putting millions in Fran's pockets and leaving many here thinking that was the new normal. Lol. If I won Powerball, I'd pay to realign the stars into a new constellation:  |
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Quackman
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Post by Quackman on Jan 16, 2018 13:42:10 GMT -5
Funny, same thing was said about the first year under JP. We heard a lot about that saints team returning only D2 talent and the freshman were Patriot level players. They were picked 10th and many on this board felt they would struggle to win 5 games. Went on to be the 5 seed and win 20 (including post season). LOL, Stop with the 20 game BS in year 1 it took 38 games to get there (basically 500 ball), not quite the same benchmark. Funny as Mitch’s kids graduated the program got progressively worse. Yeah, those 20 wins were in a season where they were projected to win 5. Say they didn't get to the CBI, they still won 10 more than most projected them to win. Saints went 11-9 in the MAAC and were the 5 seed despite being picked 10th. They went 4-8 in the OOC which included losses versus Purdue twice, Memphis and St Joes (the last three in the Disney tournament). They beat the Bonnies, Hofstra and Fordham in the regular season as well as Stony Brook (20 game winner), Penn St, Illinos St (MVC) and 2 of 3 versus Fresno St in the CBI. If you can't see that was a great result given the expectations, then I can't help you. |
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Jan 16, 2018 14:01:45 GMT -5
LOL, Stop with the 20 game BS in year 1 it took 38 games to get there (basically 500 ball), not quite the same benchmark. Funny as Mitch’s kids graduated the program got progressively worse. Yeah, those 20 wins were in a season where they were projected to win 5. Say they didn't get to the CBI, they still won 10 more than most projected them to win. Saints went 11-9 in the MAAC and were the 5 seed despite being picked 10th. They went 4-8 in the OOC which included losses versus Purdue twice, Memphis and St Joes (the last three in the Disney tournament). They beat the Bonnies, Hofstra and Fordham in the regular season as well as Stony Brook (20 game winner), Penn St, Illinos St (MVC) and 2 of 3 versus Fresno St in the CBI. If you can't see that was a great result given the expectations, then I can't help you. Good wins? Hofstra 10-23 2nd to last place, Fordham 10-21 last place & the Bonnies 18-15 9th place. What happened in year 2, what happened as Mitch’s kids graduated. Regression! As far as year 1....projections are just that projections..essentially meaningless. Year 1 expectations were low because we were coming off Mitch’s lackluster run and there were a lot of unknowns. Prior to the tournament run which included mostly paid for home games (think we get that far if we went on the road), it was a still a sub 500 regular season. Sure there were good wins in the CBI run but lets put it in perspective. All in all a pretty typical Patsos year. Judging by what we’ve seen from him over the past 5, i think we all agree it was his best year here, but what does that really prove? That it was one of his better mediocre years. |
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Post by greengold4ever on Jan 16, 2018 14:02:27 GMT -5
LOL, Stop with the 20 game BS in year 1 it took 38 games to get there (basically 500 ball), not quite the same benchmark. Funny as Mitch’s kids graduated the program got progressively worse. Yeah, those 20 wins were in a season where they were projected to win 5. Say they didn't get to the CBI, they still won 10 more than most projected them to win. Saints went 11-9 in the MAAC and were the 5 seed despite being picked 10th. They went 4-8 in the OOC which included losses versus Purdue twice, Memphis and St Joes (the last three in the Disney tournament). They beat the Bonnies, Hofstra and Fordham in the regular season as well as Stony Brook (20 game winner), Penn St, Illinos St (MVC) and 2 of 3 versus Fresno St in the CBI. If you can't see that was a great result given the expectations, then I can't help you. I would agree with the overall for yr 1, and coming off the Mitch era as well...........but then what, we see regression, and that's not what should have happened.......not really looking at just a small sample but the overall picture..........and that picture is not good, we are not better today than when he came aboard, just sayin'............... |
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Post by goldsaint17 on Jan 16, 2018 14:10:40 GMT -5
People can spin the last 4 years in a number of ways. Some will say Siena had 1 winning regular season in 4 years and no "N" Tournaments with lots of roster turnover. Others will say 3 top 5 finishes in 4 years, 2 seasons near the top of the nation in win total turnaround, a MAAC championship game bid, 6 games over .500 in MAAC play over that 4 year stretch, a CBI title, and most importantly having a 5 man senior class all graduate and send 4 to professional basketball.
Year 1 was an A.
Year 2 was a D due to the injuries.
Year 3 was probably a B+
Year 4 was a C? That's definitely the biggest one for debate (could probably go anywhere from D to B depending on expectations)
Year 5 is probably a D.
There's a case there that with the 6th-most youthful team in the country per KenPom this year that he deserves one more year (as long as this team gets to say 6 MAAC wins) to try and make one more run at it, especially with the money owed. I think Siena SHOULD step up and say that more mediocrity shouldn't be tolerated and fire him, but I can understand why they could try to keep him. I think many have criticized JP's tenure too much, just like him it's been pretty so-so, not that bad but certainly not that good. It's going to come down to whether Siena thinks they can afford the buyout and whether Siena thinks they can afford to keep him with the potential loss in sponsors/ticket sales.
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