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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 2, 2015 9:06:00 GMT -5
Ive said it in other threads, I really do believe that Patsos hands were tied. - It isn't like he can just kick a bunch of kids out of the program for not being of the caliber player he needed/wanted. There were kids that were borderline D1 and of course not of the maac level. Proof of the level of player is the record over the past five years. Too many one dimensional players with catastrophic weaknesses. Yet, he cant do anything about it. - He had his recruits coming year one. No time to recruit. Bring the entire class from Loyola because he needed bodies, regardless of fit. Spend the next year sorting it all out. Who of the returning players makes the playing rotation and who of the recruits pans out? The staff winds up late in the cycle and winds up with Brandwijk and Paige. Neither really fill the NEED the team has but neither are bad recruits. Lets not forget the false positive of the CBI. - Then comes this season with it's recruiting cycle. He lands *** Fisher, *** Clareth, ** Wormley and hopefully one more 2/3 (should Clareth play the 3). I think we all wanted a faster turnaround but without a doubt the prior coach obliterated the program in a few short years. I would add... the team was left without leaders, athleticism and speed. I could break down the weaknesses of each player but I am certain we are all well aware now. Leaders: We can claim certain players are leaders but in fact... they are not. Not one single player on this team is a vocal leader, playing nor injured... certainly not one that is listened to. Siena needs a player that is going to give the other team that proverbial "punch in the mouth" when things aren't going well. They need that player that is going to get in another players face when they need that sort of motivation. They need a player that is going to put the team on their backs in those hopefully few moments that it is necessary. They don't have ANY of that. I don't want to hear anyone claim "well so and so is" ... simple truth... NO. Not one single player on the team is that guy right now. I really... REALLY like what ive seen from both Clareth and Fisher in this respect. Athleticism and Speed: Fisher will be one of the more agile bigs, Clareth most certainly is adding athleticism and speed at whichever, the two or three, that he plays. Wormley is bringing athleticism, speed and size to backup the one and two. Lets get that transfer in to round it all out. last but not least... we have the replacement to Poole in what looks to be a gem in the rough in LaRose. Great size at 6'5" and a deadly shooter. Proof of the above should be on display over the next year+. It will be shown with the development of the incoming class and further recruiting. I think Patsos has a VERY clear idea now of who and what works and what doesn't. Frankly, right now he has a lot that doesn't (from both roster pre-patsos and even some of his own). Help is on the way. OK to all that, but CAN HE COACH? As demonstrated by Lanier, having talent doesn't necessarily equate to getting the most (or nearly the most) out of it. I believe that the incoming frosh are strong, but in mid-December will we still be hearing "THEY haven't learned the system", "THEY need to mesh better with the upperclassmen", and witness the Patsos screamfest on the sidelines with them? I've watched the team the last 2 years, and I'm not convinced. You can say he proved his coaching skills at Loyola, but did their accomplishments during his time there measure up to the talent levels he had? Prove me wrong, Jimmy. GO SAINTS!! I certainly understand what you are saying. From my own perspective, so much of the issues have been about lack of talent. Patsos may have said they don't get the system etc but the simple reality is that lack of athleticism, speed and talent at three of the five positions on the floor coupled with no leadership among the players has been his undoing. Some don't agree but ill break it down... Pre-Patsos Poole - no leadership traits, playing out of position, incapable of guarding MAAC twos. Really intended to be a supporting cast player but asked to be "the man" Hymes - feisty and certainly bringing everything he has but I still believe he isn't a D1 guard. He scores at a D1 rate but for the most part, every other aspect of his game and especially size is D2. Oliver - Very slow laterally, long release on his shot. not capable of guarding MAAC twos or threes. Not a leader. Bisping - Slow afoot but could be masked by playing more athletic, quicker players around him... which Siena doesn't have. Liability on defense, in particular when surrounded by players with similar limitations. Struggles guarding MAAC fours. Silas - one dimensional player who himself tends to be in foul trouble. Great shot blocker and adequate rebounder. Offensively inept Ogunyemi - really coming around this year, still needs to get tougher on the boards but showing signs of improvement. Capable at the five Wright - one of the better point guards in the maac but has little supporting cast on the perimeter and on the press. Long - young and not a leader, playing out of position, incapable of guarding MAAC threes and in foul trouble at NCAA record setting pace. White - solid defender and really changes the look of Siena on that side of the ball... offensively a train wreck at times. Not sure if its a confidence issue. Still... makes him one dimensional as are most of the players on the team. Paige - tweener. Struggles on defense at the four against MAAC bigs. not ready to play the three in the MAAC. Brandwijk - Typical MAAC big recruit who comes in and needs a year or two to adjust. Not to mention, a European player needing more time in the American game. add in Clareth - good size and strength with abilities on both ends of the floor. More athletic than anyone on the roster. Adds length/athleticism to the top of the press. Adds that toughness and winning swagger. Fisher - Not going to need him to hit the ground running as Siena will have depth up front but I don't doubt he will come in ready to play some. More agile than all of the Siena bigs. Adds that toughness and winning swagger. Wormley - good size to back up the 1 and 2. Like Clareth, rated as two of the best defenders in Baltimore. Length/athleticism added to the press. LaRose - 6'5" shooter with many of the same skills poole had when he came in. Sees the court very well and tough. guard/wing transfer - ? ? ? defense in particular should see a leap next year and beyond.
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Post by mattglassman312 on Mar 2, 2015 9:15:23 GMT -5
I think my biggest concern, long-term, is the in-game coaching / prep.
The recruiting will either come around or it won't. If it doesn't, Jimmy will be gone. The ability to develop players is either there or its not. If it's not, Jimmy will be gone. Either will be frustrating, but both are problems that self-correct pretty quickly in the big picture. My fear is that we assemble enough talent, it is developed well enough, we consistently compete for the MAAC, but consistently underperform relative to what we have on paper. Bad recruiters and coaches who can't develop talent don't last long enough to for the coffee to get cold; bad in-game coaches who *can* recruit/develop end up with long, but frustrating, careers because they are far too good to be fired, but just not good enough to create dominant teams or get BCS offers.
And I'm worried about that. The technical fouls drive me crazy, but I worry more about the utilization of the players and the scout. I don't know basketball well enough at the X's and O's level to have a strong feeling about it, but I do know that I never/rarely worried Fran was not using the pieces as well as he could. I get that feeling quite a bit with Jimmy. Sometimes the scout seems like it didn't even happen.
Matt
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olddave
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Post by olddave on Mar 2, 2015 9:19:30 GMT -5
Yes SaintsFan you hit on the majority of the points regarding this season and going forward. Questions remain does JP have transfers out to make room. Who can step up and lead. On the last TV game I watched Wright jaw ay Hymes at halftime. White has to be mental, perhaps he is trying to hard. Overachieved last year? Just a train wreak this year with challenges out of the control of the coachs meaning injuries. Cole the fault of the staff. Hand tied by admin. I agree with you 100%.
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Post by drumfish on Mar 2, 2015 9:28:20 GMT -5
I think my biggest concern, long-term, is the in-game coaching / prep. The recruiting will either come around or it won't. If it doesn't, Jimmy will be gone. The ability to develop players is either there or its not. If it's not, Jimmy will be gone. Either will be frustrating, but both are problems that self-correct pretty quickly in the big picture. My fear is that we assemble enough talent, it is developed well enough, we consistently compete for the MAAC, but consistently underperform relative to what we have on paper. Bad recruiters and coaches who can't develop talent don't last long enough to for the coffee to get cold; bad in-game coaches who *can* recruit/develop end up with long, but frustrating, careers because they are far too good to be fired, but just not good enough to create dominant teams or get BCS offers. And I'm worried about that. The technical fouls drive me crazy, but I worry more about the utilization of the players and the scout. I don't know basketball well enough at the X's and O's level to have a strong feeling about it, but I do know that I never/rarely worried Fran was not using the pieces as well as he could. I get that feeling quite a bit with Jimmy. Sometimes the scout seems like it didn't even happen. Matt Agree 100%, in my opinion only, the development of talent and in game coaching has not been there from day one. Our guys play hard, so they are either not talented enough, the game preparation is insufficient or the in game coaching is ineffective. Any of those fall back on the same place. A repeat of this year and the TUC becomes a hollow and dismal experience. The climb back to the top, whether it begins 3 or 4 years from now will be agonizing.
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musicman
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Post by musicman on Mar 2, 2015 10:14:57 GMT -5
I think Paige is going to be better than most who consider him a recruiting mistake would believe. I don't envision him as a star, but he should be a solid contributor. He moves well without the ball and makes quick cuts to the hoop to receive a pass. He has some IQ and works hard. I totally agree bigfan. I'm looking for a lot of improvement in his game between now and next October. He and WB have a lot to work on but I think this season's experience has made them well aware of what they need to do. I'd love to see Ruland come to Siena and work with our bigs!
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Post by MTS on Mar 2, 2015 10:48:38 GMT -5
I think Paige is going to be better than most who consider him a recruiting mistake would believe. I don't envision him as a star, but he should be a solid contributor. He moves well without the ball and makes quick cuts to the hoop to receive a pass. He has some IQ and works hard. I totally agree bigfan. I'm looking for a lot of improvement in his game between now and next October. He and WB have a lot to work on but I think this season's experience has made them well aware of what they need to do. I'd love to see Ruland come to Siena and work with our bigs! I'd love to Ruland on the staff as well. Never loved him as a HC but think he'd be a good top assistant. Keep Greg but move him as #2 (too young for top job). Ruland knows how to coach big guys and we will have a lot of them on the roster next year. Plus he knows the recruiting scene in NYC and can help us in that area. Lucious I'm 50/50 on him but after this year nobody should be feeling very safe.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Mar 2, 2015 11:33:50 GMT -5
Change what you need to change staff, roster whatever and hope for no injuries next year, no more excuses. Let's get back on track ..... I liked that the team improved and showed progress in year 1 which gives me some hope This year was just pathetic and unwatchable.
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hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Mar 2, 2015 11:51:38 GMT -5
I think our leadership level next year will be 10x better.
Still imperative to sign a legit wing that can score. The perfect scenerio would be a 5th year kid, and then he gets replaced by a transfer/Juco in '16 and joins a thin class (WB and JP).
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siena95
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Post by siena95 on Mar 2, 2015 12:47:21 GMT -5
HJ, you keep referencing a 5th year kid, how can siena get one in when we have only one masters program and most larger schools would already have a similar program, so siena would not only need to find the right player, but also the perfect scenario as far as academics to even make it fly.
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Mar 2, 2015 14:18:10 GMT -5
Rich Ensor sums it up best. He gets it:
"Jimmy needs a certain kind of player, and I don't think he's got the full complement of what he wants on the team right now," Ensor said. "It takes a few recruiting years to get that done. ... He wants a kid who's fully committed all the time at 100 percent, diving for balls, fighting for rebounds."
Patsos doesn't have the players for his system. This team was built for Mitch ball. The incoming class is the first one that allows him to really wholeheartedly influence the makeup of this team. Think about it: Wright and Clareth is going to be the new backcourt - that alone is a world of difference. The additions of LaRose and Clareth, plus the return of Bisping gives the team 3 good shooters where it had only 1 operating on one leg (Poole) this season - again, a world of difference. Allow the incoming class to get some experience, and allow for one more impact recruiting class after that - then I think most will see the program heading where it needs to be. Rome wasn't built in a day. And make no mistake, they have to rebuild Rome here. We were kidding ourselves to think this was going to be a quick fix. Everyone thought Siena was back because of the CBI run, but let's not kid ourselves here - in reality that team sucked too.
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Post by SaintsFan on Mar 2, 2015 14:21:07 GMT -5
Rich Ensor sums it up best. He gets it: "Jimmy needs a certain kind of player, and I don't think he's got the full complement of what he wants on the team right now," Ensor said. "It takes a few recruiting years to get that done. ... He wants a kid who's fully committed all the time at 100 percent, diving for balls, fighting for rebounds."Patsos doesn't have the players for his system. This team was built for Mitch ball. The incoming class is the first one that allows him to really wholeheartedly influence the makeup of this team. Think about it: Wright and Clareth is going to be the new backcourt - that alone is a world of difference. The additions of LaRose and Clareth, plus the return of Bisping gives the team 3 good shooters where it had only 1 operating on one leg (Poole) this season - again, a world of difference. Allow the incoming class to get some experience, and allow for one more impact recruiting class after that - then I think most will see the program heading where it needs to be. Rome wasn't built in a day. And make no mistake, they have to rebuild Rome here. We were kidding ourselves to think this was going to be a quick fix. Everyone thought Siena was back because of the CBI run, but let's not kid ourselves here - in reality that team sucked too. Clareth will play the two or three depending on what plays out with the remainder of recruiting
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Mar 2, 2015 14:25:51 GMT -5
Rich Ensor sums it up best. He gets it: "Jimmy needs a certain kind of player, and I don't think he's got the full complement of what he wants on the team right now," Ensor said. "It takes a few recruiting years to get that done. ... He wants a kid who's fully committed all the time at 100 percent, diving for balls, fighting for rebounds."Patsos doesn't have the players for his system. This team was built for Mitch ball. The incoming class is the first one that allows him to really wholeheartedly influence the makeup of this team. Think about it: Wright and Clareth is going to be the new backcourt - that alone is a world of difference. The additions of LaRose and Clareth, plus the return of Bisping gives the team 3 good shooters where it had only 1 operating on one leg (Poole) this season - again, a world of difference. Allow the incoming class to get some experience, and allow for one more impact recruiting class after that - then I think most will see the program heading where it needs to be. Rome wasn't built in a day. And make no mistake, they have to rebuild Rome here. We were kidding ourselves to think this was going to be a quick fix. Everyone thought Siena was back because of the CBI run, but let's not kid ourselves here - in reality that team sucked too. Clareth will play the two or three depending on what plays out with the remainder of recruiting If Clareth starts, it will be at the 2. As much as certain so-called "fans" here would like to see it, Patsos is committed to Long and won't be relegating him to a back-up role off the bench. He's Siena's starting 3 for the remainder of his career.
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Post by MTS on Mar 2, 2015 14:44:15 GMT -5
Rich Ensor sums it up best. He gets it: "Jimmy needs a certain kind of player, and I don't think he's got the full complement of what he wants on the team right now," Ensor said. "It takes a few recruiting years to get that done. ... He wants a kid who's fully committed all the time at 100 percent, diving for balls, fighting for rebounds."Patsos doesn't have the players for his system. This team was built for Mitch ball. The incoming class is the first one that allows him to really wholeheartedly influence the makeup of this team. Think about it: Wright and Clareth is going to be the new backcourt - that alone is a world of difference. The additions of LaRose and Clareth, plus the return of Bisping gives the team 3 good shooters where it had only 1 operating on one leg (Poole) this season - again, a world of difference. Allow the incoming class to get some experience, and allow for one more impact recruiting class after that - then I think most will see the program heading where it needs to be. Rome wasn't built in a day. And make no mistake, they have to rebuild Rome here. We were kidding ourselves to think this was going to be a quick fix. Everyone thought Siena was back because of the CBI run, but let's not kid ourselves here - in reality that team sucked too. I think people are concerned whether Jimmy can get it done because coaches like Hewitt and McCaffery turned it around so quickly. But (and those guys were great coaches) certainly had more pieces to work with. Jimmy took over a horrible situation and then made a few errors himself. Put that together with the injuries and seemingly everything going wrong (unlike last year) and you've got a 20 loss season. Siena fans aren't used to having 5 subpar seasons in a row (last year was fun but non-contending for an NCAA bid). This hasn't happened since LBJ/Nixon was president (1967-72). Right or wrong fair or not - Jimmy has to have a good year next year. He doesn't have to win the league but the program has to contend for the title (at least top 4). The juniors have to lead the team ('Quis, Lavon, JO and Brett) and these four frosh need to contribute right away though they don't have to be stars (would be nice if a couple were next year though).
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billmurray
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Post by billmurray on Mar 2, 2015 15:09:22 GMT -5
Ive said it in other threads, I really do believe that Patsos hands were tied. - It isn't like he can just kick a bunch of kids out of the program for not being of the caliber player he needed/wanted. There were kids that were borderline D1 and of course not of the maac level. Proof of the level of player is the record over the past five years. Too many one dimensional players with catastrophic weaknesses. Yet, he cant do anything about it. - He had his recruits coming year one. No time to recruit. Bring the entire class from Loyola because he needed bodies, regardless of fit. Spend the next year sorting it all out. Who of the returning players makes the playing rotation and who of the recruits pans out? The staff winds up late in the cycle and winds up with Brandwijk and Paige. Neither really fill the NEED the team has but neither are bad recruits. Lets not forget the false positive of the CBI. - Then comes this season with it's recruiting cycle. He lands *** Fisher, *** Clareth, ** Wormley and hopefully one more 2/3 (should Clareth play the 3). I think we all wanted a faster turnaround but without a doubt the prior coach obliterated the program in a few short years. I would add... the team was left without leaders, athleticism and speed. I could break down the weaknesses of each player but I am certain we are all well aware now. Leaders: We can claim certain players are leaders but in fact... they are not. Not one single player on this team is a vocal leader, playing nor injured... certainly not one that is listened to. Siena needs a player that is going to give the other team that proverbial "punch in the mouth" when things aren't going well. They need that player that is going to get in another players face when they need that sort of motivation. They need a player that is going to put the team on their backs in those hopefully few moments that it is necessary. They don't have ANY of that. I don't want to hear anyone claim "well so and so is" ... simple truth... NO. Not one single player on the team is that guy right now. I really... REALLY like what ive seen from both Clareth and Fisher in this respect. Athleticism and Speed: Fisher will be one of the more agile bigs, Clareth most certainly is adding athleticism and speed at whichever, the two or three, that he plays. Wormley is bringing athleticism, speed and size to backup the one and two. Lets get that transfer in to round it all out. last but not least... we have the replacement to Poole in what looks to be a gem in the rough in LaRose. Great size at 6'5" and a deadly shooter. Proof of the above should be on display over the next year+. It will be shown with the development of the incoming class and further recruiting. I think Patsos has a VERY clear idea now of who and what works and what doesn't. Frankly, right now he has a lot that doesn't (from both roster pre-patsos and even some of his own). Help is on the way. This is an accurate description of the facts.
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billmurray
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Post by billmurray on Mar 2, 2015 15:22:32 GMT -5
Clareth will play the two or three depending on what plays out with the remainder of recruiting If Clareth starts, it will be at the 2. As much as certain so-called "fans" here would like to see it, Patsos is committed to Long and won't be relegating him to a back-up role off the bench. He's Siena's starting 3 for the remainder of his career. I would have to disagree with you here. Every starting position will be won not given. This is D I basketball. Nothing is given without commitment, execution and production. That said I don't expect Long to lose his starting job, but that is not because he has a commitment from Patsos.
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