hoopjunkie
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Post by hoopjunkie on Jan 29, 2015 13:32:26 GMT -5
EVERY MAAC team wants to sign A-10/Big East level recruit, but unless you have an unusual recruiting advantage (close to home, family friend on your staff etc....) with a certain kids situation, it's not happeneing. It's actually a waste of recruiting dollars, time and energy. With that, the past two classes, I really like the WB and Fisher signings, but not a fan of the Paige/Wormley duo. We could have done a lot better there I feel. The type of back-up PG I would have gone after would be a heady, great shooter, that could run the point for 10 min a game, and contribute when the opposition plays zone against us. THEN, in 'Quis senior year, I'd get a big time PG that would start, and the junior PG remains, mentor/back-up for the last two years he's here. Page is built like a FB player. Great if he's 6'7", but not good when he's a 6'4" wing. Heavy legs. We need length, quickness and the ability to score off the bounce in our future wings. you aren't signing those kids (a10) if you aren't even recruiting them. Poole Anosike Jackson Basabe Burdine Wignot Franklin Rossiter Ubiles Griffin Mike Haddix Antoine Jordan Kojo Mensah Jack McClinton Al Fisher Tommy Mitchell Justin Miller Paul Williams Dwayne Archbold James Clinton and Im sure Im missing others, are all players who Siena had some legit MAAC+Higher competition for. As Ive said... it just seems like the past 5 years we've gone astray. Poole was the last and he signed with McCaffrey ... so a ten year window from 2000 on, Siena battled with good competition for recruits. The past 5 years its been all about NEC AE type competition. You guys are happy with the Cain recruitment right? He's got Cinn, Pitt, and a few other BCS schools and Siena. IF they all offer him, what do you think the chances are of getting him? You can stay in contact with him, as he tells us to wait in the corner and see if these big boys offer or not. I fully understand the food chain in recruiting, but I wouldn't waste a lot of time on him. I'd be full court pressing a guy we can get, like Nico, and spend less time on a guy where we are his 6th choice. As for the list you posted, we'd have to go over each kid and see what thye actually had offered. LOTS of j=kids get a letter from a school,a nd they tell the scouting servies, "Yeah, VCU, Temple, Xavier, Prov...and oh yeah Siena are recruiting me." Meanwhile, we're the only one in th ekids living room, trying to set up an official visit. And we all know there's no difference between the lower 3/4 teams in the A-10, and the top 3/4 of the MAAC.
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Post by billmurray on Jan 29, 2015 13:48:49 GMT -5
Slim, Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to this board. Your insight is fresh and insightful. Something that we lack around here sometimes (including myself). So from your conversations with players and parents why is Siena not viewed as the top pick in the MAAC for kids looking to play ball? I know you referenced above how Wolfe not working out didn't help, but is it a perceived lack of opportunity for kids? Jimmy's personality? Lack of aggressive recruiting? This boards bashing of certain players? Is there one or two things that are dragging us down? Or are we really just getting out worked by the other MAAC schools? And when did the Siena staff stop beating their wives/girlfriends? LOL
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slim
Sophomore
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Post by slim on Jan 29, 2015 14:12:40 GMT -5
Slim, Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to this board. Your insight is fresh and insightful. Something that we lack around here sometimes (including myself). So from your conversations with players and parents why is Siena not viewed as the top pick in the MAAC for kids looking to play ball? I know you referenced above how Wolfe not working out didn't help, but is it a perceived lack of opportunity for kids? Jimmy's personality? Lack of aggressive recruiting? This boards bashing of certain players? Is there one or two things that are dragging us down? Or are we really just getting out worked by the other MAAC schools? Hooligan- No problem at all. I just think the Bmore/DMV is hotbed area for talent, so the other MAAC schools are recruiting and having just as much success right now. Qpac always had MD kids, but now the jump to the MAAC has helped them, Marist brings in Maker and he's aggressive so that helps them, Monmouth similar to Qpac the jump to the MAAC helps them, so all in all Siena is recruiting against some new comers in the MAAC that are going after talent as well. I believe Pastos got the guys he liked in Fisher/Wormley. In the Bmore area I believe Pastos will get kids.
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Post by hooligan on Jan 29, 2015 14:15:21 GMT -5
Slim, Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to this board. Your insight is fresh and insightful. Something that we lack around here sometimes (including myself). So from your conversations with players and parents why is Siena not viewed as the top pick in the MAAC for kids looking to play ball? I know you referenced above how Wolfe not working out didn't help, but is it a perceived lack of opportunity for kids? Jimmy's personality? Lack of aggressive recruiting? This boards bashing of certain players? Is there one or two things that are dragging us down? Or are we really just getting out worked by the other MAAC schools? And when did the Siena staff stop beating their wives/girlfriends? LOL Funny! I guess what I was going for is that no other school inside the MAAC can match our school when you add in all of the factors - basketball success/history (maybe iona can challenge), facilities (maybe quinny or fairfield can challenge), attendence (no school can challenge), media exposure (no school can challenge), education (a few schools can challenge), campus (a few schools can challenge). But when you add up all components I think there is only one school that brings it all together and that is Siena. So I want to know from a guy on the front lines, what is the reason in his opinion OR the opinions of parents or other coaches why other schools inside the MAAC may be out recruiting us. We should have our pick of the higher level MAAC talent and should be fighting the lower schools in the A10 for their talent.
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Post by SaintsFan on Jan 29, 2015 14:25:41 GMT -5
you aren't signing those kids (a10) if you aren't even recruiting them. Poole Anosike Jackson Basabe Burdine Wignot Franklin Rossiter Ubiles Griffin Mike Haddix Antoine Jordan Kojo Mensah Jack McClinton Al Fisher Tommy Mitchell Justin Miller Paul Williams Dwayne Archbold James Clinton and Im sure Im missing others, are all players who Siena had some legit MAAC+Higher competition for. As Ive said... it just seems like the past 5 years we've gone astray. Poole was the last and he signed with McCaffrey ... so a ten year window from 2000 on, Siena battled with good competition for recruits. The past 5 years its been all about NEC AE type competition. You guys are happy with the Cain recruitment right? He's got Cinn, Pitt, and a few other BCS schools and Siena. IF they all offer him, what do you think the chances are of getting him? You can stay in contact with him, as he tells us to wait in the corner and see if these big boys offer or not. I fully understand the food chain in recruiting, but I wouldn't waste a lot of time on him. I'd be full court pressing a guy we can get, like Nico, and spend less time on a guy where we are his 6th choice. As for the list you posted, we'd have to go over each kid and see what thye actually had offered. LOTS of j=kids get a letter from a school,a nd they tell the scouting servies, "Yeah, VCU, Temple, Xavier, Prov...and oh yeah Siena are recruiting me." Meanwhile, we're the only one in th ekids living room, trying to set up an official visit. And we all know there's no difference between the lower 3/4 teams in the A-10, and the top 3/4 of the MAAC. I still don't understand why you feel the need to pick the absolute reaches to compare. ALL of the kids I posted were within reach (obviously) of siena while still being recruited to some extent by higher level programs. You come out with a kid getting looks from Cincinatti, Pitt, Xaviers as the one to make the comparison while Im talking about the Richmonds, George Washingtons, St Joes, George Masons and even the Rhode Islands, Duquesnes, Fordhams, Lasalles etc. I would hope you could see the distinction and are simply looking to embellish with your example.
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hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
Posts: 12,475
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Post by hoopjunkie on Jan 29, 2015 14:28:22 GMT -5
You guys are happy with the Cain recruitment right? He's got Cinn, Pitt, and a few other BCS schools and Siena. IF they all offer him, what do you think the chances are of getting him? You can stay in contact with him, as he tells us to wait in the corner and see if these big boys offer or not. I fully understand the food chain in recruiting, but I wouldn't waste a lot of time on him. I'd be full court pressing a guy we can get, like Nico, and spend less time on a guy where we are his 6th choice. As for the list you posted, we'd have to go over each kid and see what thye actually had offered. LOTS of j=kids get a letter from a school,a nd they tell the scouting servies, "Yeah, VCU, Temple, Xavier, Prov...and oh yeah Siena are recruiting me." Meanwhile, we're the only one in th ekids living room, trying to set up an official visit. And we all know there's no difference between the lower 3/4 teams in the A-10, and the top 3/4 of the MAAC. I still don't understand why you feel the need to pick the absolute reaches to compare. ALL of the kids I posted were within reach (obviously) of siena while still being recruited to some extent by higher level programs. You come out with a kid getting looks from Cincinatti, Pitt, Xaviers as the one to make the comparison while Im talking about the Richmonds, George Washingtons, St Joes, George Masons and even the Rhode Islands, Duquesnes, Fordhams, Lasalles etc. I would hope you could see the distinction and are simply looking to embellish with your example. Did you read the last line of my post? ps--Cain was only bought up because you guys NEED to see our name with the low BE, and any A-10 school, in order for that recruit to get any respect. He's the first one I can recall with interest out of our league. Nice to be mentioned, but if everyone offers, we have zero chance of getting him.
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Post by SaintsFan on Jan 29, 2015 14:29:38 GMT -5
Slim, Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to this board. Your insight is fresh and insightful. Something that we lack around here sometimes (including myself). So from your conversations with players and parents why is Siena not viewed as the top pick in the MAAC for kids looking to play ball? I know you referenced above how Wolfe not working out didn't help, but is it a perceived lack of opportunity for kids? Jimmy's personality? Lack of aggressive recruiting? This boards bashing of certain players? Is there one or two things that are dragging us down? Or are we really just getting out worked by the other MAAC schools? Hooligan- No problem at all. I just think the Bmore/DMV is hotbed area for talent, so the other MAAC schools are recruiting and having just as much success right now. Qpac always had MD kids, but now the jump to the MAAC has helped them, Marist brings in Maker and he's aggressive so that helps them, Monmouth similar to Qpac the jump to the MAAC helps them, so all in all Siena is recruiting against some new comers in the MAAC that are going after talent as well. I believe Pastos got the guys he liked in Fisher/Wormley. In the Bmore area I believe Pastos will get kids. my concern again slim... is we use to see siena involved with kids in the Philly Jersey and even NYC area and battling GOOD programs for recruits. If I saw Siena losing battles to Quinnipiac and Monmouth I might buy what youre saying... that isn't what we are seeing. We are seeing Siena lock up with UMBC, Towson, Mt St Marys etc. That is simply unacceptable in my book
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Post by SaintsFan on Jan 29, 2015 14:31:24 GMT -5
I still don't understand why you feel the need to pick the absolute reaches to compare. ALL of the kids I posted were within reach (obviously) of siena while still being recruited to some extent by higher level programs. You come out with a kid getting looks from Cincinatti, Pitt, Xaviers as the one to make the comparison while Im talking about the Richmonds, George Washingtons, St Joes, George Masons and even the Rhode Islands, Duquesnes, Fordhams, Lasalles etc. I would hope you could see the distinction and are simply looking to embellish with your example. Did you read the last line of my post? did you see the example you chose to call me out on was a kid that apparently has Cin and Pitt involved? Because without a doubt Siena should be in recruiting battles with the entire bottom 2 thirds of the A10 ... and often. Right now... we simply aren't looking at that level of player. heck... with a number of recruits recently... we've been their only D1 offer
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hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
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Post by hoopjunkie on Jan 29, 2015 14:35:27 GMT -5
Hooligan- No problem at all. I just think the Bmore/DMV is hotbed area for talent, so the other MAAC schools are recruiting and having just as much success right now. Qpac always had MD kids, but now the jump to the MAAC has helped them, Marist brings in Maker and he's aggressive so that helps them, Monmouth similar to Qpac the jump to the MAAC helps them, so all in all Siena is recruiting against some new comers in the MAAC that are going after talent as well. I believe Pastos got the guys he liked in Fisher/Wormley. In the Bmore area I believe Pastos will get kids. We are seeing Siena lock up with UMBC, Towson, Mt St Marys etc. That is simply unacceptable in my book Then you must have been real pissed when we got Hasbrouck, Moore and Franklin, because none of them had any real interest/scholarships.
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hoopjunkie
Associate Head Coach
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Post by hoopjunkie on Jan 29, 2015 14:36:35 GMT -5
Did you read the last line of my post? heck... with a number of recruits recently... we've been their only D1 offer SEE ABOVE POST ^^^^^^
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Post by greenblood on Jan 29, 2015 15:21:31 GMT -5
and I think most of us that were objective have already stated that Fran struck lightning in a bottle with Hasbrouck, Moore, Franklin and Ubiles(thanks to Pete Sheehan).
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Post by SaintsFan on Jan 29, 2015 15:34:31 GMT -5
We are seeing Siena lock up with UMBC, Towson, Mt St Marys etc. That is simply unacceptable in my book Then you must have been real pissed when we got Hasbrouck, Moore and Franklin, because none of them had any real interest/scholarships. Franklin had an offer from Lasalle and late interest from VCU (although VCU wasn't the VCU that we know today) Moore had little interest and mostly because he weighed about 140 lbs coming out of highschool. Ubiles was considering between Seton Hall Rhode Island and UMass. again.... seeing as you are struggling with grasping my point.... nearly every kid we seem to recruit right now falls in the panning for an unearthed gem category. Whereas you see above that Fran was recruiting up, as did Lanier before him. Yes... every now and then they would take a gamble on a kid... but for the most part battled with good programs for good kids
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Post by SaintsFan on Jan 29, 2015 15:46:26 GMT -5
and I think most of us that were objective have already stated that Fran struck lightning in a bottle with Hasbrouck, Moore, Franklin and Ubiles(thanks to Pete Sheehan). you imply that fran got lucky. you do know he had Basabe and Bryon Allen ready to come in had he stayed. Basabe would've been a POY candidate in this conference and Allen would've been an eventual first/second teamer. Lanier couldn't game coach but was one hell of a recruiter. Jack McClinton - ROW 6 times in MAAC, Third team all ACC, All ACC first teamer as a Junior, All ACC first teamer as a senior Al Fisher - MAC POY Sniezyk Haddix Tommy Mitchell - eventually got a crack at the NBA after destroying the Canadian professional league Justin Miller Paul Williams Antoine Jordan
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Post by MTS on Jan 29, 2015 17:17:27 GMT -5
Fran did get a little lucky with Hasbrouck and Moore. I believe Kenny only had an offer from Jacksonville and Ronald only had an offer from New Hampshire. We signed Kenny in June of 2005 (two months after Fran got the job) and Moore in January of 2006 half way during Fran's first year. On paper both were "sleepers" - nobody could imagine they would turn out to be as good as they were.
Franklin had offers from LaSalle and a few others but him being an undersized PF probably scared people off - their loss, Siena's gain. Rossiter had an offer from Providence but they wanted him to prep. Clarence Jackson had an offer from Richmond. All were expected to be good but they also exceeded where they were recruited too. Wignot an offers from Penn State and Temple - he was a solid player but not spectacular. OD Anosike had like 35-40 D1 offers.
Ubiles was probably (either him or Basabe) the highest recruit we landed on paper. Of course we were lucky that he wanted to go to a smaller school and stay close to home. Also helped having the Siena connection with Pete Sheehan.
Bottom line - Fran was a very good recruiter. Lanier was probably the best of them all but he could not balance his classes or coach from the bench.
Jimmy is not a great tactician but if he can bring in elite talent he'll be fine. These next two kids he signs will probably define his Siena tenure.
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Post by greenblood on Jan 29, 2015 17:34:24 GMT -5
Fran did get lucky. He got three players who flew under the radar in Hasbrouck, Moore and Franklin. He had an impact player in Eddie served up. BUT, he was also SMART enough to know how to get them to gel into a winning team. That was obvious even in his first year when he played to the strengths of those 'role players' he was left with after Lanier.
And....I will say it again, Basabe was never coming to Siena. I don't begrudge Fran for cashing in on his success at Siena, but Basabe's signing was specifically attached directly to Fran who I do believe already knew he wasn't staying here.
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