Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 16, 2013 20:28:37 GMT -5
Not sour grapes at all. Siena is clearly a great job for Jimmy. Better fan base, better facilities, and a huge raise. Actually, I was hoping that Jimmy would take the St. John's assistant job with Steve Lavin before Gary Williams talked him out of it. While I'm not a Jimmy fan, I do think Luke was a real asset. Just take one look at Jimmy's record in the MAAC tourney and you'll get a glimpse of our disappointment. He turned things around at Loyola, but it was hardly a miracle...Just look at Towson's Pat Skerry this year. Looking at his tourney record, he did win it for Loyola...only the second time it's ever been done. I don't see how you can be disappointed in that. Sometimes you have to step back and objectively assess how much of the shortcomings were the coach's - and how much were the school's. Frankly, I think Patsos took Loyola as far as it's going to go...just as McCaffery did at UNCG. Do you think McCaffery was ever going to pull off at UNCG what he achieved at Siena? Hell no. I think both men will have in common a far higher ceiling of achievement at Siena. At the end of the day. I'll judge him by what he does at Siena, not at what he did at Loyola - because it's an apples to oranges comparison. To do otherwise is like suggesting what a general does commanding North Korea's Army provides insight as to what he'd do with the U.S. Army.
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OneIndian
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Post by OneIndian on Apr 16, 2013 20:30:45 GMT -5
FWIW, talent on the floor can make up for a lot of coaching deficiencies. Fran was a good game coach, but he was not what I would call masterful with timeout management, halftime adjustments, etc. I loved Fran as our coach, but his great success was having recruited talent above the level of anyone else in the conference. I believe that Jimmy, with his personality and passion, could very well accomplish the same thing here at Siena. *Ding* Ding * Ding* we have a winner-- the reason Fran was so successful is he had a great eye for talent and was able to sell Siena to them --- its not going to far out on a limb saying Fran's last year he had the 5 best players in the conference. Amazing how great players make a coach look good. given Jimmy's personality , the advantages he has over the rest of the MAAC ( in facilities media coverage fan base etc ) I expect Jimmy recruiting to go up a notch maybe two notch's . I'm excited about the future But that still doesn't address what really bugs me.... In 9 years at Loyola he never won anything that mattered-when it mattered, anything big....No signature wins over a big school, lost this years MAAC tournament. No denying, it's truly bothersome!
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 16, 2013 20:38:27 GMT -5
He turned things around at Loyola, but it was hardly a miracle... It was a major miracle. Tom, you're tripping and you need to review Loyola's history a bit closer. Loyola has a long history of being a bottom feeder. Other than Patsos, Skip Prosser what the only other coach to have any sort of success there. When Patsos got there they had won 1 game the season before and they'd be lucky to have 100 people in the stands during games. You don't think what he did there was a miracle? You've got to be kidding me.
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Post by Tony on Apr 16, 2013 20:40:17 GMT -5
*Ding* Ding * Ding* we have a winner-- the reason Fran was so successful is he had a great eye for talent and was able to sell Siena to them --- its not going to far out on a limb saying Fran's last year he had the 5 best players in the conference. Amazing how great players make a coach look good. given Jimmy's personality , the advantages he has over the rest of the MAAC ( in facilities media coverage fan base etc ) I expect Jimmy recruiting to go up a notch maybe two notch's . I'm excited about the future But that still doesn't address what really bugs me.... In 9 years at Loyola he never won anything that mattered-when it mattered, anything big....No signature wins over a big school, lost this years MAAC tournament. No denying, it's truly bothersome! Fair enough- but how many big wins did Fran have before he came to Siena? For that matter how many big wins to other MAAC coaches have now or in recent years? You are comparing other coaches to what Siena has done over the years- now other MAAC schools fans hate hearing this- but it’s the God’s honest truth,( and they all know it that’s why they have penis envy over Siena) the ceiling at Siena is much higher than any other MAAC program
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Sienafan
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Post by Sienafan on Apr 16, 2013 20:41:48 GMT -5
*Ding* Ding * Ding* we have a winner-- the reason Fran was so successful is he had a great eye for talent and was able to sell Siena to them --- its not going to far out on a limb saying Fran's last year he had the 5 best players in the conference. Amazing how great players make a coach look good. given Jimmy's personality , the advantages he has over the rest of the MAAC ( in facilities media coverage fan base etc ) I expect Jimmy recruiting to go up a notch maybe two notch's . I'm excited about the future But that still doesn't address what really bugs me.... In 9 years at Loyola he never won anything that mattered-when it mattered, anything big....No signature wins over a big school, lost this years MAAC tournament. No denying, it's truly bothersome! Neither had UNC Greensboro when Fran was there - and you see what became of them after he left. Sometimes it's all about the program's limitations - not the coach's. The old adage that a good coach can win anywhere is true - but there's only so high certain programs can take you.
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Post by MTS on Apr 16, 2013 20:48:41 GMT -5
Yeah Jimmy will be fine in terms of being a winning coach. We will have winning seasons.. he will make national postseason tournaments... the question is -
can he get Siena to the level of say VCU? And take Siena where we haven't been yet (Sweet 16, top 25) We will see... it's a tough task but can be done. I do like that he's not running from it. The previous coach forget about it... but even Fran kind of backed off or always lamented the reasons why it would be hard to an elite mid-major consistently.
On the first day Patsos was introduced he said "I want to go to the Final Four" now sure he talks alot but I believe him when he says Siena can become a VCU, Butler or Wichita State.. Mike Deane is going too far back for me but I know Paul Hewitt always aimed that high.
Since then Jimmy probably has wisely backed down a little and said it won't be easy getting back to the NCAAs and winning games but it's certainly the goal. Of course a move to the A10 would help accomplish some of these things.
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Post by siena12077 on Apr 16, 2013 22:56:51 GMT -5
Youre truly an idiot. A move to the A-10 would make it harder to win and go to the post season. Yes they get at-large bids but the road getting there is more difficult. Siena would go from the leagues top program in terms of spending and resources to below average in the A-10. Sometimes I think people just like the sound of being in the A-10 better than what it may entail siena having to endure.
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Post by Tony on Apr 17, 2013 4:11:08 GMT -5
Youre truly an idiot. A move to the A-10 would make it harder to win and go to the post season. Yes they get at-large bids but the road getting there is more difficult. Siena would go from the leagues top program in terms of spending and resources to below average in the A-10. Sometimes I think people just like the sound of being in the A-10 better than what it may entail siena having to endure. Really below average? Are you privy to what Siena will spend in the A10? I get a kick out of fear monger posters. Rest assured if Siena goes to the A10 their spending will be on par with the conference. Siena attendance would be tops or near the top in the A10, facilities ( with new practice addition) will be again be near the top , media coverage again near the top ( VCU is the new national media darling) While I agree the path to post season is most definitely more difficult in the A10 and certainly Siena will no longer be top dog, Siena will be far from below average. Siena will definitely have to “step” up their game, but Siena has the structural things in place to be a very good A10 program. MTS gets to dreaming and certainly gets a head of himself- but please save the name calling for the MAAC attack board- thank you
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Apr 17, 2013 6:24:25 GMT -5
First, I don't pretend to speak for all Loyola fans in general. However, I do think it is helpful for Siena fans to get some insight on your new coach. I should preface my remarks by saying that all Loyola fans are grateful for the job that Jimmy and his staff did while at Loyola. He won games and graduated players and that is very admirable. Here goes: Pros: Great passion for the game. The fans will love his gameday intensity. He can spot HS talent and get in early on them. Also was able to bring in some high quality transfers. He likes one per year. Great in the public relations area. Cons: He is his own biggest fan. For all of the talk about how genuine he is, he just reminds me of a political candidate...kind of like Phil Mickelson. He doesn't know how to coach very well within the flow of the game. During his first 7 years at Loyola, if a player made a mistake, they were yanked out of the game and berated...he will do the same at Siena....and the players and fans will become frustrated by this. The players never get a chance to get in the flow of the game....With a veteran team, the past 2 years...he was much better about this. While he knows good talent, he doesn't always develop talent the way you would like. You'll find that there will be a good number of players that verbally commit to Siena that never find their way to the school. I can rattle off a least 8-10 players over the past 6 or so years that never played. The PR thing can also be bothersome....whether it's the Steph Curry perma-double team, to his celebrity worship/ name dropping (he recruited Denzell Washington's son & SJ Touhy from The Blind Side...he was also recruiting Mark Gottfried's son...to me it always seemed contrived. In fact, contrived is a good word for Jimmy. Some fans will love him...others will find him a bit much. To me, I always thought Bobby Knight was a douche....Jimmy has some Bobby Knight and Gary Williams intensity towards his players. Some will say he mellowed a bit with age...I think it is more a function of having a cohesive, veteran team. I am disappointed that Loyola's recruits are all following Jimmy, but not surprised. I do not know this to be fact, but I doubt that Maurice White would have been accepted in Loyola. Marko Pirovic is also planning on going to Siena. Lavon Long is a nice player....so is Marquis Wright....I hope he stays with Loyola. Mark my words...those that were frustrated going in will be really frustrated 4 years from now. The big reason, he gets outcoached when the opposing team is of equal talent. Enjoy the rollercoaster ride...it will be entertaining. I didn't respond when I first read this last night because I felt like I was just going to be too negative toward a new poster. Now that I've slept on it and read it again I am still in a place where I am probably going to be too negative with my response.... This whole post is nothing more than either sour grapes and/or underhanded recruiting. Luckily based on the majority of the response it seems most everyone recognizes what Jimmy had to overcome to achieve any success at Loyola and that he will not face similar challenges at Siena. We also know about his outburst AND luckily that his PLAYERS still LOVE him. That tells you a lot doesn't it!? It seems to me and many that I've talked with about this hire that the one question that remains is: has he/can he improve his in-game adjustments or at the minimum make sure he has a great x/o game coach on his staff that he empowers to make the call on in-game adjustments. If the answer is yes Siena is about to be off to the races again. If the answer is no then Siena finally hired its Magarity... Bottom line regarding this post from a newly registered poster - its like I wrote to PPC recently: when making your college choice and/or following a program on the internet you have to have thick skin and take everything with a grain of salt. At this point tomfromnc gets a very small grain of salt in my book...
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glen
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Post by glen on Apr 17, 2013 6:46:30 GMT -5
Tom brought up legit issues. Whether or not that plays out here is to be seen. My biggest fear is the Maggarity syndrome. I'm hoping JP is more Shaka Smart than Dave Maggarity. Winning those up games also has a lot to do with talent. Often times the mids don't have it. Fran had Ubiles/Moore/Rossiter/RyRo/CJ - those guys, on a given night, could play with damn near anyone. If JP recruits like that I'll be ecstatic. It's part of the reason I'm concerned about grabbing too many kids right now for next year. Next May we have no new scholarship available. It'll be 2 years before JP will actually be able to take advantage of his new recruiting position. We're getting excited about LOYOLA recruits. Granted, they're looking pretty good but that may be more a factor of where Mitch left us.
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Post by gosaints on Apr 17, 2013 9:43:44 GMT -5
Tom brought up legit issues. Whether or not that plays out here is to be seen. My biggest fear is the Maggarity syndrome. I'm hoping JP is more Shaka Smart than Dave Maggarity. Winning those up games also has a lot to do with talent. Often times the mids don't have it. Fran had Ubiles/Moore/Rossiter/RyRo/CJ - those guys, on a given night, could play with damn near anyone. If JP recruits like that I'll be ecstatic. It's part of the reason I'm concerned about grabbing too many kids right now for next year. Next May we have no new scholarship available. It'll be 2 years before JP will actually be able to take advantage of his new recruiting position. We're getting excited about LOYOLA recruits. Granted, they're looking pretty good but that may be more a factor of where Mitch left us. I agree with Glen since I'm just as excited as the next guy about anything Jimmy does. However lets keep in mind that recruit wise all he has done so far is raid "Loyola's pantry"! Do these kids look good? Yes, compared to what the PW came up with but are they the top 3 or 4 incoming recruits in the MAAC this year? Maybe someone can do a comparison of how they stack up against the other 2013 MAAC incoming recruits?
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Post by playerparentcoach on Apr 17, 2013 9:48:53 GMT -5
You guys need to consider that Patsos was part of Maryland's National Championship right?...coaches learn alot from that experience
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glen
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Post by glen on Apr 17, 2013 9:53:50 GMT -5
Mitch was part of 'Nova's national championship too. Just sayin'....
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Post by playerparentcoach on Apr 17, 2013 10:14:46 GMT -5
Mitch was part of 'Nova's national championship too. Just sayin'.... It is always possible that your negatives outweigh your positives..in Patsos case he used those positives to build a program from the ground...that is enough evidence for me to believe he used his championship experience for the better ......I dont know what Mitch did with his but it appears his negaties outweighed the positives he gained from his experience
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nolesaint
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Post by nolesaint on Apr 17, 2013 10:27:26 GMT -5
Mitch was part of 'Nova's national championship too. Just sayin'.... It is always possible that your negatives outweigh your positives..in Patsos case he used those positives to build a program from the ground...that is enough evidence for me to believe he used his championship experience for the better ......I dont know what Mitch did with his but it appears his negaties outweighed the positives he gained from his experience A potential incoming recruit's mom just took game, set and match from you clowns
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